3 ms·

Same reason that discovered human and animals figures are explained as "religious artifacts", rather than just dolls and toys made for kids. Everything found g

by zdw 3y ago

Same reason that discovered human and animals figures are explained as "religious artifacts", rather than just dolls and toys made for kids. Everything found gets re-explained as having great significance, even if it was mundane. This comes up in "A Canticle for Leibowitz", if you want another interesting take on the idea.

junofan 3y ago
Problem is fingers are a bit more important than toys. Also there are tribes today still practicing this. Chop off the finger and eat it for good luck. Not hard to imagine the occasional psychotic shamanistic dude starting this practice from time to time. And we still practice circumcision in some Western cultures today.
viraptor 3y ago
Reminds me of the recurring "fertility cult items" or similar names in archaeological findings. As a code for "it's probably a dildo". (Yes, there are cult items too, but AFAIU this is at the level of a meme for archeologists on social media at this point)
quetzthecoatl 3y ago
nothing beats the "religious afterlife" takes. When they find some skeleton with some cooking pottery and archeologists/historians assume it's because the pre h historic culture had buried this person with cookery because he/she would need to cook in the after life - when most likely it's because the person was contaminated, and got buried/left with all his worldly possessions and everything else was burned off.
- melagonster 3y ago
  However, the custom of burying someone together with everyday objects is still observed, and the Egyptians also practiced a similar tradition. On the other hand, epidemiology has only become widely known in the last few centuries.
- jannyfer 3y ago
  And you theorize that people understood contamination thousands of years ago? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_theory_of_disease https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_theory_of_disease
  - dotnet00 3y ago
    I don't think they'd have needed a model for why it happens to see the obvious correlation between using things used by a sick person and getting sick. It'd be compatible with the older idea of a "miasma" spreading the disease.
    - anvandare 3y ago
      I agree. Evolutionary speaking, animals that develop different behaviors based on 'clean' versus 'unclean' would have a leg-up against the competition. Ants, to give a quick example, throw their dead out with the rest of the garbage.[1] (Which can lead to a funny experiment to have them carry out living members as well - "I'm not dead yet!"[2]) You don't have to understand why you are doing something - or even that you are doing it at all - as long as it works and gives you a benefit, however small. Without proper understanding you will also have false positives, but it's better to be assume there is danger than to assume there isn't any. False positives outweigh false negatives. (To a certain level, of course, too much of it and paranoia becomes harmful again.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necrophoresis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necrophoresis [2] https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2009/04/01/102601823/hey-im-dead-the-story-of-the-very-lively-ant https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2009/04/01/102601823/h...
  - quetzthecoatl 3y ago
    they don't necessarily need to figure out the germ theory to know that diseases spread from proximity and/or contact with sick people when it happens right in front of them. Also, there could be many such reasons for burying/burning someone dead with his/her possessions. My point was that almost always it becomes "elaborate rituals and beliefs of afterlife with same worldly possessions that they had here on earth" - just because we know pharaohs/ancient Egyptians did it.
  - 3y ago
- angiosperm 3y ago
  It has been quite common to believe that all the personal property of any dead person was unsafe or unclean to use, and so was often burned or buried with them. This was observed, for example, in northern California tribes in historical times. Sometimes it only applied to weapons. It doesn't depend on a belief in the afterlife. What archaeologists call "ritual" need have nothing to do with religion. Washing your car and mowing the lawn are American suburban rituals. Halloween, Christmas, and birthday celebrations are ritual. We also have ribbon-cuttings and graduations. When I was growing up we "pledged allegiance" to the US flag.
shusaku 3y ago
The whole point of the presentation alluded to in the article was so that the researchers could present evidence for this point. But because the guardian is clickbait garbage, they were sure not to include the details. Probably they knew that the chorus of people on social media repeating this meme would drive engagement.
guerrilla 3y ago
Right, it couldn't possibly be because they know more than you two and have actual reasons after having spent years becoming experts on the subject, building on the knowledge of thousands of others who dedicated their lives to studying it, could it?
atombender 3y ago
This is also the premise of David Macaulay's children's cult classic Motel of the Mysteries [1], in which archeologists from the year 4022 dig through layers of trash to find the remnants of our current civilization, and interprets the excavated structures in clinical fashion. The joke is that we, as readers, understand that it's just a motel and they've found the bathroom, but the archeologists believe it's a porcelain burial chamber featuring royal vestments (i.e. plastic toilet seat). It's silly but fun. [1] https://www.vox.com/22753080/motel-mysteries-book-david-maca https://www.vox.com/22753080/motel-mysteries-book-david-maca...

by zdw 3y ago

junofan 3y ago

Problem is fingers are a bit more important than toys. Also there are tribes today still practicing this. Chop off the finger and eat it for good luck. Not hard to imagine the occasional psychotic shamanistic dude starting this practice from time to time. And we still practice circumcision in some Western cultures today.

viraptor 3y ago

Reminds me of the recurring "fertility cult items" or similar names in archaeological findings. As a code for "it's probably a dildo". (Yes, there are cult items too, but AFAIU this is at the level of a meme for archeologists on social media at this point)

quetzthecoatl 3y ago

nothing beats the "religious afterlife" takes. When they find some skeleton with some cooking pottery and archeologists/historians assume it's because the pre h historic culture had buried this person with cookery because he/she would need to cook in the after life - when most likely it's because the person was contaminated, and got buried/left with all his worldly possessions and everything else was burned off.

melagonster 3y ago
However, the custom of burying someone together with everyday objects is still observed, and the Egyptians also practiced a similar tradition. On the other hand, epidemiology has only become widely known in the last few centuries.
jannyfer 3y ago
And you theorize that people understood contamination thousands of years ago? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_theory_of_disease https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_theory_of_disease
- dotnet00 3y ago
  I don't think they'd have needed a model for why it happens to see the obvious correlation between using things used by a sick person and getting sick. It'd be compatible with the older idea of a "miasma" spreading the disease.
  - anvandare 3y ago
    I agree. Evolutionary speaking, animals that develop different behaviors based on 'clean' versus 'unclean' would have a leg-up against the competition. Ants, to give a quick example, throw their dead out with the rest of the garbage.[1] (Which can lead to a funny experiment to have them carry out living members as well - "I'm not dead yet!"[2]) You don't have to understand why you are doing something - or even that you are doing it at all - as long as it works and gives you a benefit, however small. Without proper understanding you will also have false positives, but it's better to be assume there is danger than to assume there isn't any. False positives outweigh false negatives. (To a certain level, of course, too much of it and paranoia becomes harmful again.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necrophoresis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necrophoresis [2] https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2009/04/01/102601823/hey-im-dead-the-story-of-the-very-lively-ant https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2009/04/01/102601823/h...
- quetzthecoatl 3y ago
  they don't necessarily need to figure out the germ theory to know that diseases spread from proximity and/or contact with sick people when it happens right in front of them. Also, there could be many such reasons for burying/burning someone dead with his/her possessions. My point was that almost always it becomes "elaborate rituals and beliefs of afterlife with same worldly possessions that they had here on earth" - just because we know pharaohs/ancient Egyptians did it.
- 3y ago
angiosperm 3y ago
It has been quite common to believe that all the personal property of any dead person was unsafe or unclean to use, and so was often burned or buried with them. This was observed, for example, in northern California tribes in historical times. Sometimes it only applied to weapons. It doesn't depend on a belief in the afterlife. What archaeologists call "ritual" need have nothing to do with religion. Washing your car and mowing the lawn are American suburban rituals. Halloween, Christmas, and birthday celebrations are ritual. We also have ribbon-cuttings and graduations. When I was growing up we "pledged allegiance" to the US flag.

shusaku 3y ago

The whole point of the presentation alluded to in the article was so that the researchers could present evidence for this point. But because the guardian is clickbait garbage, they were sure not to include the details. Probably they knew that the chorus of people on social media repeating this meme would drive engagement.

guerrilla 3y ago

Right, it couldn't possibly be because they know more than you two and have actual reasons after having spent years becoming experts on the subject, building on the knowledge of thousands of others who dedicated their lives to studying it, could it?

atombender 3y ago

This is also the premise of David Macaulay's children's cult classic Motel of the Mysteries [1], in which archeologists from the year 4022 dig through layers of trash to find the remnants of our current civilization, and interprets the excavated structures in clinical fashion. The joke is that we, as readers, understand that it's just a motel and they've found the bathroom, but the archeologists believe it's a porcelain burial chamber featuring royal vestments (i.e. plastic toilet seat). It's silly but fun. [1] https://www.vox.com/22753080/motel-mysteries-book-david-maca https://www.vox.com/22753080/motel-mysteries-book-david-maca...