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Those systems had bugs like anything else, they were just never addressed if the customer didn't bring their vehicle back to a dealership. Have you dealt with c

Those systems had bugs like anything else, they were just never addressed if the customer didn't bring their vehicle back to a dealership. Have you dealt with code from the 70s-90s before? The codebases I've worked with from that time period were rife with bugs and quality issues we wouldn't consider remotely acceptable today.

torstenvl 3y ago
I am struggling to understand what it is you're trying to communicate. The original point is that it's quite clear that motor vehicles can physically operate without software, and so therefore smart automotive systems should use graceful degradation in order to avoid situations such as in the OP. Are you disagreeing that a motor vehicle can operate without software? Or are you disagreeing that a vehicle should continue to operate when smart features are unavailable?
- AlotOfReading 3y ago
  My point is that software is essentially required to build the "basic car" they propose, and all software components potentially need updates. There are valid arguments both ways whether they only happen at dealerships or also OTA or some third way, but they need to happen regardless. One example where software is practically required is the backup camera. Would you prefer a series of lenses and mirrors? None of that should be taken to imply that a vehicle should stop operating under any remotely normal circumstances. The situation pictured should not happen to customers.
  - Sirizarry 3y ago
    I wasn’t part of the original convo but I also think you’re missing the point. The backup camera is not part of a “basic car” and a series of mirrors is how we’ve backed up and parked for decades before backup cameras were invented. Seriously imagine the most basic car you can imagine. I mean as little to no software as possible. That’s the basic car. Any other addition, anything else that someone might slap into the car, should not affect the basic cars functionality if turned off or otherwise impaired. This is obviously possible and the example of cars are with basic systems not NEEDING an update and still driving fine is evidence of this.
    - AlotOfReading 3y ago
      Perhaps this is a difference of definition, but when I think of "basic car" I understand that to mean the minimum vehicle that can legally operate on the road. Brakes, steering, lights, mirrors, airbags, etc. Backup cameras, AEB, and emissions controls, are all part of that now for better or worse. As far as NHTSA is concerned, backup cameras are just as mandatory as working brakes. You can't build a vehicle that doesn't have them, and most (all?) states prohibit operating vehicles without these features. Tesla, Mercedes, Nissan, Toyota, Honda, and Subaru have all had safety recalls because of issues with software failing to display that image properly. Older vehicles don't comply with these newer regulations and are only allowed to operate because of grandfather clauses.
      - torstenvl 3y ago
        There is no NHTSA standard I'm aware of that requires a vehicle to become inoperable if the backup camera loses functionality. There are no states I'm aware of that require a vehicle to become inoperable if the backup camera loses functionality. Please provide the C.F.R. link or state statute link you're talking about.
        AlotOfReading 3y ago
        You're missing how FMVSS works. They're all mandatory unless they're one of the listed exemptions to the make inoperative prohibition (part 595) or otherwise stated. States regulate that generally by some variation of "operating an unsafe vehicle" rules, e.g. VC 24002 in CA. Those rules deliberately take a wide view of what unsafe means, but broadly include things that would prevent passing inspections like failing to meet FMVSS. Note that I'm not talking about the actual chance of getting dinged for operating a vehicle this way, because we all know there's effectively no real enforcement here.
        torstenvl 3y ago
        Cali. Veh. Code 24002 does not require a vehicle to become inoperable if the backup camera fails. It does not reference backup cameras at all in the text, and there is no case law to support that interpretation. You have been given plenty of opportunities to make your case and have refused to do so. I think it's pretty clear by now that you're just being disingenuous.
  - torstenvl 3y ago
    > My point is that software is essentially required to build the "basic car" they propose, and all software components potentially need updates. Both of these are obviously false. Automobiles have existed longer than automotive computers, and lots of software continues to function without updates. I suspect you're aware of both facts.

torstenvl 3y ago

I am struggling to understand what it is you're trying to communicate. The original point is that it's quite clear that motor vehicles can physically operate without software, and so therefore smart automotive systems should use graceful degradation in order to avoid situations such as in the OP. Are you disagreeing that a motor vehicle can operate without software? Or are you disagreeing that a vehicle should continue to operate when smart features are unavailable?

AlotOfReading 3y ago
My point is that software is essentially required to build the "basic car" they propose, and all software components potentially need updates. There are valid arguments both ways whether they only happen at dealerships or also OTA or some third way, but they need to happen regardless. One example where software is practically required is the backup camera. Would you prefer a series of lenses and mirrors? None of that should be taken to imply that a vehicle should stop operating under any remotely normal circumstances. The situation pictured should not happen to customers.
- Sirizarry 3y ago
  I wasn’t part of the original convo but I also think you’re missing the point. The backup camera is not part of a “basic car” and a series of mirrors is how we’ve backed up and parked for decades before backup cameras were invented. Seriously imagine the most basic car you can imagine. I mean as little to no software as possible. That’s the basic car. Any other addition, anything else that someone might slap into the car, should not affect the basic cars functionality if turned off or otherwise impaired. This is obviously possible and the example of cars are with basic systems not NEEDING an update and still driving fine is evidence of this.
  - AlotOfReading 3y ago
    Perhaps this is a difference of definition, but when I think of "basic car" I understand that to mean the minimum vehicle that can legally operate on the road. Brakes, steering, lights, mirrors, airbags, etc. Backup cameras, AEB, and emissions controls, are all part of that now for better or worse. As far as NHTSA is concerned, backup cameras are just as mandatory as working brakes. You can't build a vehicle that doesn't have them, and most (all?) states prohibit operating vehicles without these features. Tesla, Mercedes, Nissan, Toyota, Honda, and Subaru have all had safety recalls because of issues with software failing to display that image properly. Older vehicles don't comply with these newer regulations and are only allowed to operate because of grandfather clauses.
    - torstenvl 3y ago
      There is no NHTSA standard I'm aware of that requires a vehicle to become inoperable if the backup camera loses functionality. There are no states I'm aware of that require a vehicle to become inoperable if the backup camera loses functionality. Please provide the C.F.R. link or state statute link you're talking about.
      - AlotOfReading 3y ago
        You're missing how FMVSS works. They're all mandatory unless they're one of the listed exemptions to the make inoperative prohibition (part 595) or otherwise stated. States regulate that generally by some variation of "operating an unsafe vehicle" rules, e.g. VC 24002 in CA. Those rules deliberately take a wide view of what unsafe means, but broadly include things that would prevent passing inspections like failing to meet FMVSS. Note that I'm not talking about the actual chance of getting dinged for operating a vehicle this way, because we all know there's effectively no real enforcement here.
        torstenvl 3y ago
        Cali. Veh. Code 24002 does not require a vehicle to become inoperable if the backup camera fails. It does not reference backup cameras at all in the text, and there is no case law to support that interpretation. You have been given plenty of opportunities to make your case and have refused to do so. I think it's pretty clear by now that you're just being disingenuous.
- torstenvl 3y ago
  > My point is that software is essentially required to build the "basic car" they propose, and all software components potentially need updates. Both of these are obviously false. Automobiles have existed longer than automotive computers, and lots of software continues to function without updates. I suspect you're aware of both facts.