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Cars have been built for decades without needing any updates at all. Microcontrollers were first put in cars in the 1970s, for fuel injection control, and late

Cars have been built for decades without needing any updates at all. Microcontrollers were first put in cars in the 1970s, for fuel injection control, and later for ABS and SRS. No one ever got a software update for their ABS controller in the 1990s. They've been happily running non-updateable code for many decades now, and all of a sudden you think it's normal to update embedded software? No, it really isn't. If there was a real problem, there was a manufacturer recall and they replaced parts.

ryandrake 3y ago
Yes, this fatalistic "all software inevitably has bugs" attitude is corrosive and self-reinforcing. How about we replace it with "the more complex the software, the faster it's built, the more likely it will have bugs". At least then, there's a solution. Simplify. Slow down. Test. Remove software. Don't use software when it's not required. The current free-for-all where we must put complex software into everything is killing us.
AlotOfReading 3y ago
Those systems had bugs like anything else, they were just never addressed if the customer didn't bring their vehicle back to a dealership. Have you dealt with code from the 70s-90s before? The codebases I've worked with from that time period were rife with bugs and quality issues we wouldn't consider remotely acceptable today.
- torstenvl 3y ago
  I am struggling to understand what it is you're trying to communicate. The original point is that it's quite clear that motor vehicles can physically operate without software, and so therefore smart automotive systems should use graceful degradation in order to avoid situations such as in the OP. Are you disagreeing that a motor vehicle can operate without software? Or are you disagreeing that a vehicle should continue to operate when smart features are unavailable?
  - AlotOfReading 3y ago
    My point is that software is essentially required to build the "basic car" they propose, and all software components potentially need updates. There are valid arguments both ways whether they only happen at dealerships or also OTA or some third way, but they need to happen regardless. One example where software is practically required is the backup camera. Would you prefer a series of lenses and mirrors? None of that should be taken to imply that a vehicle should stop operating under any remotely normal circumstances. The situation pictured should not happen to customers.
    - Sirizarry 3y ago
      I wasn’t part of the original convo but I also think you’re missing the point. The backup camera is not part of a “basic car” and a series of mirrors is how we’ve backed up and parked for decades before backup cameras were invented. Seriously imagine the most basic car you can imagine. I mean as little to no software as possible. That’s the basic car. Any other addition, anything else that someone might slap into the car, should not affect the basic cars functionality if turned off or otherwise impaired. This is obviously possible and the example of cars are with basic systems not NEEDING an update and still driving fine is evidence of this.
      - AlotOfReading 3y ago
        Perhaps this is a difference of definition, but when I think of "basic car" I understand that to mean the minimum vehicle that can legally operate on the road. Brakes, steering, lights, mirrors, airbags, etc. Backup cameras, AEB, and emissions controls, are all part of that now for better or worse. As far as NHTSA is concerned, backup cameras are just as mandatory as working brakes. You can't build a vehicle that doesn't have them, and most (all?) states prohibit operating vehicles without these features. Tesla, Mercedes, Nissan, Toyota, Honda, and Subaru have all had safety recalls because of issues with software failing to display that image properly. Older vehicles don't comply with these newer regulations and are only allowed to operate because of grandfather clauses.

ryandrake 3y ago

Yes, this fatalistic "all software inevitably has bugs" attitude is corrosive and self-reinforcing. How about we replace it with "the more complex the software, the faster it's built, the more likely it will have bugs". At least then, there's a solution. Simplify. Slow down. Test. Remove software. Don't use software when it's not required. The current free-for-all where we must put complex software into everything is killing us.

AlotOfReading 3y ago

Those systems had bugs like anything else, they were just never addressed if the customer didn't bring their vehicle back to a dealership. Have you dealt with code from the 70s-90s before? The codebases I've worked with from that time period were rife with bugs and quality issues we wouldn't consider remotely acceptable today.

torstenvl 3y ago
I am struggling to understand what it is you're trying to communicate. The original point is that it's quite clear that motor vehicles can physically operate without software, and so therefore smart automotive systems should use graceful degradation in order to avoid situations such as in the OP. Are you disagreeing that a motor vehicle can operate without software? Or are you disagreeing that a vehicle should continue to operate when smart features are unavailable?
- AlotOfReading 3y ago
  My point is that software is essentially required to build the "basic car" they propose, and all software components potentially need updates. There are valid arguments both ways whether they only happen at dealerships or also OTA or some third way, but they need to happen regardless. One example where software is practically required is the backup camera. Would you prefer a series of lenses and mirrors? None of that should be taken to imply that a vehicle should stop operating under any remotely normal circumstances. The situation pictured should not happen to customers.
  - Sirizarry 3y ago
    I wasn’t part of the original convo but I also think you’re missing the point. The backup camera is not part of a “basic car” and a series of mirrors is how we’ve backed up and parked for decades before backup cameras were invented. Seriously imagine the most basic car you can imagine. I mean as little to no software as possible. That’s the basic car. Any other addition, anything else that someone might slap into the car, should not affect the basic cars functionality if turned off or otherwise impaired. This is obviously possible and the example of cars are with basic systems not NEEDING an update and still driving fine is evidence of this.
    - AlotOfReading 3y ago
      Perhaps this is a difference of definition, but when I think of "basic car" I understand that to mean the minimum vehicle that can legally operate on the road. Brakes, steering, lights, mirrors, airbags, etc. Backup cameras, AEB, and emissions controls, are all part of that now for better or worse. As far as NHTSA is concerned, backup cameras are just as mandatory as working brakes. You can't build a vehicle that doesn't have them, and most (all?) states prohibit operating vehicles without these features. Tesla, Mercedes, Nissan, Toyota, Honda, and Subaru have all had safety recalls because of issues with software failing to display that image properly. Older vehicles don't comply with these newer regulations and are only allowed to operate because of grandfather clauses.