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The whole expert testimony thing is a farce anyway. I am far and away an expert in artificial intelligence, and had one of these “expert witnesses” interview m

The whole expert testimony thing is a farce anyway. I am far and away an expert in artificial intelligence, and had one of these “expert witnesses” interview me about my expertise. They hardly knew the basics of software engineering in a modern way let alone modern machine learning pipelines. This is a person who had some patent exposure and generally does small business type of “IT.” The key differentiator in this case is because they couldn’t make it as a actual engineer they decided to parlay their skills into convincing even less technical people that they knew what they were talking about.

asylteltine 3y ago
It’s true. An expert witness is someone who can hold up in court not someone who is an expert in their field sadly.
awinter-py 3y ago
expert witness could barely even invert a binary tree
tel 3y ago
Agreed, though being an expert witness is its own skill. You need to be able to coordinate and/or write reports which will hold up under scrutiny in court and also be willing and able to stand for depositions and testimony. This also means that your credentials need to stand up to questioning so your credentials need to be transparent and hopefully unimpeachable. Unfortunately, it’s work that’s pretty distinct from engineering expertise despite in theory being supplemental atop engineering experience itself.
mynameisnoone 3y ago
An "expert witness" is merely an ostensible title meaning someone is available to be paid for their testimony. One irreducible problem is "Who decides who an 'expert' is?" A former customer of mine was a civil engineer, and also a California-credentialed Professional Engineer (PE), who did code consulting and gave expert testimony about the ASME boiler and pressure vessel code. His code interpretations earned about $100k in 2023 dollars ($50k in 1996) for 45 minutes of effort in 1996. I'd take a guess that an appearance was ~$10-80k depending on the amount of preparation, time, and travel. Needless to say, he had/has a 8-figure house in Saratoga, CA. Finding a niche that is essential to industry and monetizing it well is a fairly repeatable plan for success if one identifies and chooses the right profession. (PE in California means someone has attained accredited education, worked in a learning capacity at an appropriate type of firm for 4 years, and taken the very difficult PE exam. California licenses generic PEs and fields related and adjacent to construction and civil engineering. It's a shame there aren't specific software or hardware critical assurance PE subcategories.)
- toasted-subs 3y ago
  Well there's a reason why. There's an EE licensing example, but it's just a review of basic circuit design. Not all that useful in practice.
- bumby 3y ago
  It’s a little odd that a civil engineer is being an expert witness for pressure vessels, which are typically the Dobson of mechanical engineers. Though, to be fair, most states leave it up to the individual license holder to determine what domains they’ve are competent in. The other aspect that’s interesting to me is that, like “engineer”, the term “expert witness” may be too generic to have much meaning. From the related Oregon case linked elsewhere: >“Courts have long recognized that the term ‘engineer’ has a generic meaning separate from ‘professional engineer”
  - mynameisnoone 3y ago
    In this case, it's not for the time period because the specialty of ASME boilers and pressure vessels had legacy CivEs in addition to MEs. These guys had decades of experience on massive industrial, petrochem, and nuclear engineering projects.
    - bumby 3y ago
      That makes sense. As an aside about your comment: >It's a shame there aren't specific software NCEES tried to have a software PE but it withered on the vine and was only offered for a few years. I suspect the incentives in industry don’t support it and the only way itv would get traction is if it were forced by regulation.
      - ThrowawayR2 3y ago
        I probably sound like a broken record on this but the software PE was effectively impossible to get firstly because the Fundamentals of Engineering exam that is the first step to becoming a PE wasn't discipline specific at that time IIRC and contained topics like thermodynamics that very few CS students would have had exposure to. Even for those candidates who got past the Fundamentals of Engineering exam, four years of professional experience under an already certified PE was the next step but there weren't any existing software PEs to do the supervision. Only after passing those two hurdles could the candidate take the software PE exam and become a PE. So basically NCEES made no honest effort to make attaining a software PE realistically possible.
CrazyStat 3y ago
> The key differentiator in this case is because they couldn’t make it as an actual engineer they decided to parlay their skills into convincing even less technical people that they knew what they were talking about. The guy had an entire career as an engineer, he’s now in his 70s and retired. Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html (I originally had something snarky here but in the spirit of being better I edited it out)
- dmoy 3y ago
  It ranges the whole gamut. You'll find expert witnesses who are complete hacks, and expert witnesses who are like literal top10 in whatever field. In computing even. E.g. that time Rivest and Diffie both went on the stand to bat for newegg
  - ahazred8ta 3y ago
    "public key encryption. Are you familiar with that?" "Yes, I am." "And how is it that you're familiar with public key encryption?" "I invented it."
    - dmoy 3y ago
      Lol was that how the direct went for real?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
adastra22 3y ago
I was asked to be an expert witness for a divorce case where bitcoin was involved. This is a pseudonymous HN account not linked to my real world identity, but I'd been a developer of bitcoin core for 8 years at the time, and had cofounded a very well known bitcoin company. I've presented at multiple bitcoin conferences, and the lightning network was made possible due to changes to bitcoin I personally spearheaded. In fact the set of people this could describe is so small, I've probably blown my cover to someone reading this from that scene. The expert witness called by the opposing side was someone I had never heard of, who had a certificate from "Blockchain University," and near as I can tell never worked as a software engineer anywhere, much less on bitcoin. Guess which one of us nearly got disqualified for lack of credentials. Expert witness testimony is such a joke.
- gnicholas 3y ago
  I’ve thought about making a line of collegiate apparel with ornate lettering: SDU. When asked what “SDU” stands for, the wearer would reply, “Signaling Device University”.
  - tomcam 3y ago
    I hear they’re Blockchain University’s biggest rivals
    - adastra22 3y ago
      Nah man, Crypto Tech is the best!
- bredren 3y ago
  Were you at the first Bitcoin conference in 2013? We had a booth there. I’m curious about the context of Bitcoin in this divorce proceeding. What was at dispute?
  - adastra22 3y ago
    Yes I was in San Jose in 2013, if that’s the one you’re talking about (technically there was one conference earlier in Thailand, but nobody remembers that one). I was on a panel at the SJ conference. The case I was consulted for was pretty bog standard “guy claims he lost his bitcoin in a hard drive reformat X years ago; wife claims BS and wants half of peak market value as of the highest historical price.” Without getting into identifying details, I was able to use blockchain data to independently verify the guy’s claims. Traced transactions, found watermarking features tying them to specific wallet versions. Can’t actually prove that the keys were destroyed of course, but I did show the coins were being spent like crazy from one wallet on one machine, then all activity stopped right around when he claims he reformatted the computer, and the coins sit there on those same wallet outputs to this day, even with multiple market peaks in the intervening years, and many years between then and when he became aware of his wife’s intent to divorce. That’s the way things go in court cases. Us software developers like to think that the law is a highly rational, proof based system. But in reality it basically comes down to “which story seems more believable” in the end, and being able to point to technical proof is the exception.

asylteltine 3y ago

It’s true. An expert witness is someone who can hold up in court not someone who is an expert in their field sadly.

awinter-py 3y ago

expert witness could barely even invert a binary tree

tel 3y ago

Agreed, though being an expert witness is its own skill. You need to be able to coordinate and/or write reports which will hold up under scrutiny in court and also be willing and able to stand for depositions and testimony. This also means that your credentials need to stand up to questioning so your credentials need to be transparent and hopefully unimpeachable. Unfortunately, it’s work that’s pretty distinct from engineering expertise despite in theory being supplemental atop engineering experience itself.

mynameisnoone 3y ago

An "expert witness" is merely an ostensible title meaning someone is available to be paid for their testimony. One irreducible problem is "Who decides who an 'expert' is?" A former customer of mine was a civil engineer, and also a California-credentialed Professional Engineer (PE), who did code consulting and gave expert testimony about the ASME boiler and pressure vessel code. His code interpretations earned about $100k in 2023 dollars ($50k in 1996) for 45 minutes of effort in 1996. I'd take a guess that an appearance was ~$10-80k depending on the amount of preparation, time, and travel. Needless to say, he had/has a 8-figure house in Saratoga, CA. Finding a niche that is essential to industry and monetizing it well is a fairly repeatable plan for success if one identifies and chooses the right profession. (PE in California means someone has attained accredited education, worked in a learning capacity at an appropriate type of firm for 4 years, and taken the very difficult PE exam. California licenses generic PEs and fields related and adjacent to construction and civil engineering. It's a shame there aren't specific software or hardware critical assurance PE subcategories.)

toasted-subs 3y ago
Well there's a reason why. There's an EE licensing example, but it's just a review of basic circuit design. Not all that useful in practice.
bumby 3y ago
It’s a little odd that a civil engineer is being an expert witness for pressure vessels, which are typically the Dobson of mechanical engineers. Though, to be fair, most states leave it up to the individual license holder to determine what domains they’ve are competent in. The other aspect that’s interesting to me is that, like “engineer”, the term “expert witness” may be too generic to have much meaning. From the related Oregon case linked elsewhere: >“Courts have long recognized that the term ‘engineer’ has a generic meaning separate from ‘professional engineer”
- mynameisnoone 3y ago
  In this case, it's not for the time period because the specialty of ASME boilers and pressure vessels had legacy CivEs in addition to MEs. These guys had decades of experience on massive industrial, petrochem, and nuclear engineering projects.
  - bumby 3y ago
    That makes sense. As an aside about your comment: >It's a shame there aren't specific software NCEES tried to have a software PE but it withered on the vine and was only offered for a few years. I suspect the incentives in industry don’t support it and the only way itv would get traction is if it were forced by regulation.
    - ThrowawayR2 3y ago
      I probably sound like a broken record on this but the software PE was effectively impossible to get firstly because the Fundamentals of Engineering exam that is the first step to becoming a PE wasn't discipline specific at that time IIRC and contained topics like thermodynamics that very few CS students would have had exposure to. Even for those candidates who got past the Fundamentals of Engineering exam, four years of professional experience under an already certified PE was the next step but there weren't any existing software PEs to do the supervision. Only after passing those two hurdles could the candidate take the software PE exam and become a PE. So basically NCEES made no honest effort to make attaining a software PE realistically possible.

CrazyStat 3y ago

> The key differentiator in this case is because they couldn’t make it as an actual engineer they decided to parlay their skills into convincing even less technical people that they knew what they were talking about. The guy had an entire career as an engineer, he’s now in his 70s and retired. Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html (I originally had something snarky here but in the spirit of being better I edited it out)

dmoy 3y ago
It ranges the whole gamut. You'll find expert witnesses who are complete hacks, and expert witnesses who are like literal top10 in whatever field. In computing even. E.g. that time Rivest and Diffie both went on the stand to bat for newegg
- ahazred8ta 3y ago
  "public key encryption. Are you familiar with that?" "Yes, I am." "And how is it that you're familiar with public key encryption?" "I invented it."
  - dmoy 3y ago
    Lol was that how the direct went for real?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

adastra22 3y ago

I was asked to be an expert witness for a divorce case where bitcoin was involved. This is a pseudonymous HN account not linked to my real world identity, but I'd been a developer of bitcoin core for 8 years at the time, and had cofounded a very well known bitcoin company. I've presented at multiple bitcoin conferences, and the lightning network was made possible due to changes to bitcoin I personally spearheaded. In fact the set of people this could describe is so small, I've probably blown my cover to someone reading this from that scene. The expert witness called by the opposing side was someone I had never heard of, who had a certificate from "Blockchain University," and near as I can tell never worked as a software engineer anywhere, much less on bitcoin. Guess which one of us nearly got disqualified for lack of credentials. Expert witness testimony is such a joke.

gnicholas 3y ago
I’ve thought about making a line of collegiate apparel with ornate lettering: SDU. When asked what “SDU” stands for, the wearer would reply, “Signaling Device University”.
- tomcam 3y ago
  I hear they’re Blockchain University’s biggest rivals
  - adastra22 3y ago
    Nah man, Crypto Tech is the best!
bredren 3y ago
Were you at the first Bitcoin conference in 2013? We had a booth there. I’m curious about the context of Bitcoin in this divorce proceeding. What was at dispute?
- adastra22 3y ago
  Yes I was in San Jose in 2013, if that’s the one you’re talking about (technically there was one conference earlier in Thailand, but nobody remembers that one). I was on a panel at the SJ conference. The case I was consulted for was pretty bog standard “guy claims he lost his bitcoin in a hard drive reformat X years ago; wife claims BS and wants half of peak market value as of the highest historical price.” Without getting into identifying details, I was able to use blockchain data to independently verify the guy’s claims. Traced transactions, found watermarking features tying them to specific wallet versions. Can’t actually prove that the keys were destroyed of course, but I did show the coins were being spent like crazy from one wallet on one machine, then all activity stopped right around when he claims he reformatted the computer, and the coins sit there on those same wallet outputs to this day, even with multiple market peaks in the intervening years, and many years between then and when he became aware of his wife’s intent to divorce. That’s the way things go in court cases. Us software developers like to think that the law is a highly rational, proof based system. But in reality it basically comes down to “which story seems more believable” in the end, and being able to point to technical proof is the exception.