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>Like other things from their technology. Like what? The Greeks advanced science and mathematics. The Romans sacked Greece and pillaged their artifacts. They d

>Like other things from their technology. Like what? The Greeks advanced science and mathematics. The Romans sacked Greece and pillaged their artifacts. They didn't advance science or mathematics at all. Rome was a 1,000 year dark age.

pjmlp 3y ago
So high morals, had you been a romer, mostly likely you would have taken part on it. Are you also so cultivated on what the other civilization of the time sacked and pillaged as well?
- fngjdflmdflg 3y ago
  I think you're missing my point. I'm not making a moral argument at all but a factual one. The Romans sacked Greece and killed Archimedes. All you have to do is look at the rate of mathematical and technological progress before and after Rome to see that Rome was a dark age. Before Rome we have the Pythagorean theorem, Euclid's Elements, Aristotle and many others. After Rome you have Kitab al-Jabr and later European Universities which were founded on Greek knowledge which had until then been discarded by the Romans.
  - throw_pm23 3y ago
    The Romans were interested in other things. Their civil engineering, construction methods (e.g. concrete), public infrastructure, military technology, legal sophistication, etc. etc. etc. greatly surpassed that of the Greeks.
    - ioblomov 3y ago
      Even conceding the lack of contributions to theory, their practical achievements in engineering and government (which insured centuries of cumulative, if not continuous, peace across a region that spanned three continents) combined with their linguistic and literary legacy from Caesar to Virgil (which spawned the Romance languages and influenced much of western literature) are enough to make equating the Roman period with a dark age hyperbolic at best.
  - nemo 3y ago
    >The Romans sacked Greece and killed Archimedes. All you have to do is look at the rate of mathematical and technological progress before and after Rome to see that Rome was a dark age. So you really ought to take look at technological progress in Rome since you've got it absolutely backwards. The Romans were less inclined to sophisticated abstract thought than the Greeks, the sophisticated discourses on political theory especially were dead, and they weren't sophisticated mathematicians, but the Romans were certainly more sophisticated technologically than the Greeks. Also the Greeks didn't just disappear once the Romans conquered their territory. The great Greek cities like Syracuse, Alexandria, Antioch, et al. carried on under the Romans while the Romans took great pains to preserve and promote Greek learning, while Roman engineering picked up every trick from every culture they encountered. You're surely familiar with the Antikthera mechanism, that was an orrery, a sophisticated Greek astronomical calculating device which the Romans continued to build for centuries. The Romans had remarkably sophisticated technology which certainly eclipsed the Greeks on many fronts in architecture, aqueducts, et al. The development of concrete was a Roman invention that opened tremendous inventiveness.
artzmeister 3y ago
I would expect this answer from a reddit thread or a youtube comment, but not from HN. One would think such a silly and ignorant view of history would not be found here, but alas, it was. Yours seems to be one of those opinions that can be summed up as "lol Greeks good Romans steal" when there is no shortage of technology and civil law improvements the Romans brought to light. To mention a few: a senate, aqueducts, urban planning, sanitation, civil engineering much better than that of the Greeks (see domes and arches), many ideals that are still present in today's governments, farms of quasi-industrial level production, and so forth. That the Greeks made more developments in Maths is true - it was more of a cultural thing anyway. Your post also completely ignores the fact that Greece flourished under Roman rule and managed to keep many of its freedoms, with the protection of a giant empire. Romans also distributed Greek texts to all corners of the known world, wherein learned people could be found. Your comment seriously sounds like that of a child, not at all something of the level of HN.
- fngjdflmdflg 3y ago
  >many ideals that are still present in today's governments Rome existed for more than a thousand years, and for five hundred of those years there was only an emperor (who didn't refer to himself as a king). I will give you that Rome was good at building but that doesn't stop it from being a dark age. And while Greece was mostly left alone they did not "flourish" and their output significantly decreased. The Romans were anti intellectual and cared more about their traditions than understanding the world. That's why the Romans used Greek statue building techniques to make status of themselves and of the Emperor instead of the gods like Greece did. To Romans they were their own gods. They didn't care about the natural world or about philosophy. They actually became better at statue building than the Greeks (after hundreds of years) which would probably be listed by you as a "Great Roman Achievement" but it's just the result of Aping Greek culture. The Romans themselves were in a sense aware of this; they would use Greek in official documents and would at times dress up in Greek Togas/Chitons. Caesar's Et tu, Brute? was actually spoken in Greek.
  - artzmeister 3y ago
    Is your point entirely based on statues an emperors? None of what you said proves anything and you make baseless claims about them not caring about the natural world or philosophy. Bother to read actual Roman and Greek sources of the time and you will find yourself contradicted soon (Plutarch's Parallel Lives might be of use, then Cicero, etc). Seems clear to me that this opinion is not your own.
MeImCounting 3y ago
Aqueducts: Innovated water management. Concrete: Revolutionized construction. Roads: Pioneered extensive networks. Julian Calendar: Improved timekeeping. Legal principles: Influenced modern law.
t_mann 3y ago
The Roman empire may not have much of a legacy in mathematics, though they did continue Greek traditions of philosophy and even had 'philosopher kings' [0], but they were very much leaders in engineering, and the legacy of Roman ingenuity is still alive today: The influence of Roman roads can still be seen today [1], Roman concrete is still studied by modern material scientists for its properties [2], the Pantheon is still the largest concrete (only) dome in the world [3], and even the width of modern railroads can be traced back to Roman road standards [4]. That's not even mentioning aqueducts, some of which still stand today, that brought unknown levels of sanitary hygiene to cities at the time, or the fact that civil engineering wasn't even the main focus of Roman engineers (who were by and large associated with the military, often enabling the legions to beat impossible odds [5] and displaying a fairly modern understanding of the importance of logistics [6]). Like it or not, Rome was a STEM powerhouse, despite its lack of interest in 'pure' science or mathematics, and owed no small portion of its dominance to the prowess of its engineers. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Aurelius#Writings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Aurelius#Writings [1] https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/roman-roads-wealth-today/ https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/roman-roads-wealth-today/ [2] https://news.mit.edu/2023/roman-concrete-durability-lime-casts-0106 https://news.mit.edu/2023/roman-concrete-durability-lime-cas... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheon,_Rome#Structure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheon,_Rome#Structure [4] https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/railroad-gauge-chariots/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/railroad-gauge-chariots/ [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Alesia#Siege https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Alesia#Siege [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_strategy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_strategy

pjmlp 3y ago

So high morals, had you been a romer, mostly likely you would have taken part on it. Are you also so cultivated on what the other civilization of the time sacked and pillaged as well?

fngjdflmdflg 3y ago
I think you're missing my point. I'm not making a moral argument at all but a factual one. The Romans sacked Greece and killed Archimedes. All you have to do is look at the rate of mathematical and technological progress before and after Rome to see that Rome was a dark age. Before Rome we have the Pythagorean theorem, Euclid's Elements, Aristotle and many others. After Rome you have Kitab al-Jabr and later European Universities which were founded on Greek knowledge which had until then been discarded by the Romans.
- throw_pm23 3y ago
  The Romans were interested in other things. Their civil engineering, construction methods (e.g. concrete), public infrastructure, military technology, legal sophistication, etc. etc. etc. greatly surpassed that of the Greeks.
  - ioblomov 3y ago
    Even conceding the lack of contributions to theory, their practical achievements in engineering and government (which insured centuries of cumulative, if not continuous, peace across a region that spanned three continents) combined with their linguistic and literary legacy from Caesar to Virgil (which spawned the Romance languages and influenced much of western literature) are enough to make equating the Roman period with a dark age hyperbolic at best.
- nemo 3y ago
  >The Romans sacked Greece and killed Archimedes. All you have to do is look at the rate of mathematical and technological progress before and after Rome to see that Rome was a dark age. So you really ought to take look at technological progress in Rome since you've got it absolutely backwards. The Romans were less inclined to sophisticated abstract thought than the Greeks, the sophisticated discourses on political theory especially were dead, and they weren't sophisticated mathematicians, but the Romans were certainly more sophisticated technologically than the Greeks. Also the Greeks didn't just disappear once the Romans conquered their territory. The great Greek cities like Syracuse, Alexandria, Antioch, et al. carried on under the Romans while the Romans took great pains to preserve and promote Greek learning, while Roman engineering picked up every trick from every culture they encountered. You're surely familiar with the Antikthera mechanism, that was an orrery, a sophisticated Greek astronomical calculating device which the Romans continued to build for centuries. The Romans had remarkably sophisticated technology which certainly eclipsed the Greeks on many fronts in architecture, aqueducts, et al. The development of concrete was a Roman invention that opened tremendous inventiveness.

artzmeister 3y ago

I would expect this answer from a reddit thread or a youtube comment, but not from HN. One would think such a silly and ignorant view of history would not be found here, but alas, it was. Yours seems to be one of those opinions that can be summed up as "lol Greeks good Romans steal" when there is no shortage of technology and civil law improvements the Romans brought to light. To mention a few: a senate, aqueducts, urban planning, sanitation, civil engineering much better than that of the Greeks (see domes and arches), many ideals that are still present in today's governments, farms of quasi-industrial level production, and so forth. That the Greeks made more developments in Maths is true - it was more of a cultural thing anyway. Your post also completely ignores the fact that Greece flourished under Roman rule and managed to keep many of its freedoms, with the protection of a giant empire. Romans also distributed Greek texts to all corners of the known world, wherein learned people could be found. Your comment seriously sounds like that of a child, not at all something of the level of HN.

fngjdflmdflg 3y ago
>many ideals that are still present in today's governments Rome existed for more than a thousand years, and for five hundred of those years there was only an emperor (who didn't refer to himself as a king). I will give you that Rome was good at building but that doesn't stop it from being a dark age. And while Greece was mostly left alone they did not "flourish" and their output significantly decreased. The Romans were anti intellectual and cared more about their traditions than understanding the world. That's why the Romans used Greek statue building techniques to make status of themselves and of the Emperor instead of the gods like Greece did. To Romans they were their own gods. They didn't care about the natural world or about philosophy. They actually became better at statue building than the Greeks (after hundreds of years) which would probably be listed by you as a "Great Roman Achievement" but it's just the result of Aping Greek culture. The Romans themselves were in a sense aware of this; they would use Greek in official documents and would at times dress up in Greek Togas/Chitons. Caesar's Et tu, Brute? was actually spoken in Greek.
- artzmeister 3y ago
  Is your point entirely based on statues an emperors? None of what you said proves anything and you make baseless claims about them not caring about the natural world or philosophy. Bother to read actual Roman and Greek sources of the time and you will find yourself contradicted soon (Plutarch's Parallel Lives might be of use, then Cicero, etc). Seems clear to me that this opinion is not your own.

MeImCounting 3y ago

Aqueducts: Innovated water management. Concrete: Revolutionized construction. Roads: Pioneered extensive networks. Julian Calendar: Improved timekeeping. Legal principles: Influenced modern law.

t_mann 3y ago

The Roman empire may not have much of a legacy in mathematics, though they did continue Greek traditions of philosophy and even had 'philosopher kings' [0], but they were very much leaders in engineering, and the legacy of Roman ingenuity is still alive today: The influence of Roman roads can still be seen today [1], Roman concrete is still studied by modern material scientists for its properties [2], the Pantheon is still the largest concrete (only) dome in the world [3], and even the width of modern railroads can be traced back to Roman road standards [4]. That's not even mentioning aqueducts, some of which still stand today, that brought unknown levels of sanitary hygiene to cities at the time, or the fact that civil engineering wasn't even the main focus of Roman engineers (who were by and large associated with the military, often enabling the legions to beat impossible odds [5] and displaying a fairly modern understanding of the importance of logistics [6]). Like it or not, Rome was a STEM powerhouse, despite its lack of interest in 'pure' science or mathematics, and owed no small portion of its dominance to the prowess of its engineers. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Aurelius#Writings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Aurelius#Writings [1] https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/roman-roads-wealth-today/ https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/roman-roads-wealth-today/ [2] https://news.mit.edu/2023/roman-concrete-durability-lime-casts-0106 https://news.mit.edu/2023/roman-concrete-durability-lime-cas... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheon,_Rome#Structure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheon,_Rome#Structure [4] https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/railroad-gauge-chariots/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/railroad-gauge-chariots/ [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Alesia#Siege https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Alesia#Siege [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_strategy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_strategy