4 ms·

It’s interesting they note the association of paleness with beauty, which has been lost a bit in European culture over time but is vibrant in Asia where dark co

It’s interesting they note the association of paleness with beauty, which has been lost a bit in European culture over time but is vibrant in Asia where dark complexion is considered low, with associations of poverty, low class, and ignorance. Women in Asia go to elaborate means to lighten their skin, from hiding from the sun to wearing sunscreen, all the way to questionably safe skin lightening treatments with various chemicals and procedures at often exorbitant rates. Flipping to the other side of the world, Europeans are sunbathing, using tanning chemicals, and other means to get the exact opposite effect. (My pet theory is this is because tanning is a product of a life of leisure, which is increasingly harder to get and sun exposure isn’t as associated with poverty and manual labor as people moved indoors to work in the west). I got married 23 years ago, and was along for the ride with the cultural norms of feminine beauty. In fact the lengths women went to intrigued me, partially because it was a sort of subjugation for my pleasure. As I grew older I saw that as disgusting, and learned that my wife is my companion and that is where the beauty of the sexes truly lies. As I had a daughter I saw things yet again as telling girls to never feel truly comfortable in any context, to always be wrong in who they are, to only be acceptable if they make themselves different than their natural self. As a man that’s a shocking way to live, we are taught to belch and fart and dress the way we feel comfortable. Don’t shave for a few days? Handsome. Why have we done this to our friends, lovers, companions, daughters, sisters, mothers? Yeah I get it women do it to themselves as well, when I say “we,” I mean all of us humans. It’s a sad thing that half of us can structurally never be comfortable in themselves.

cousin_it 3y ago
> In fact the lengths women went to intrigued me, partially because it was a sort of subjugation for my pleasure. They don't do it for your pleasure. They do it to get something they want - attract someone cool. Men also do lots of things for that reason.
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  Sorry, how does attracting someone cool not mean doing it for the pleasure of the someone cool? That seems like exactly the reason they’re doing it. The attraction isn’t like magnetism, it’s not a physical force. It’s by creating pleasure in the opposite sex, creating an image that’s pleasing to them. So, yes, they in fact do do it for my pleasure. And I’m not saying that’s necessarily a wrong thing. I do things to attract people as well. They also do it for their own - I’m not saying women don’t want to be more beautiful only for men’s pleasure. But my point is, what a strange structure we have that half of the humans on earth feel profoundly and unshakably uncomfortable by being simply their selves without modifications? Like, literally can’t be seen in public without applying substances to their face to change how they look?
  - cousin_it 3y ago
    > Sorry, how does attracting someone cool not mean doing it for the pleasure of the someone cool? The same way you might wish to get hired by a highly paying company, but not have any particular desire for that company to become richer. These two things are just not connected much.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Did it ever occur to both, you and OP, that women do that for themselves? Just wondering.
  - watwut 3y ago
    That theory is tested when women are alone. While some women do use make up and everything, most women at home just don't care.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Just like I accept bad hair day at home. So, you do everything you do in presence of others to impress someone else?
      - watwut 3y ago
        If you accept bad hair at home and not in public, pretty clearly it is not that you care about hair for yourself. You clearly do it for other people and their perception of you.
        hef19898 3y ago
        Ah, of course! Thank you for enlightening me! And there I was, thinking I am not caring about appearance just because I woory whom of the people I meet is interested in me! /s
  - fnordpiglet 3y ago
    “”” They also do it for their own - I’m not saying women don’t want to be more beautiful only for men’s pleasure. “””
norwalkbear 3y ago
What are you talking about? Men's plastic surgery, body dysmorphia, and suicides are at an all time high. It's not a gender issue. White men tan until they get cancer, asian and black men whiten their skin. Even legendary baseball player Sammy Sosa bleached his skin!
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  Sorry, I didn’t mean to say it’s exclusively women. Just that it’s almost all women, for thousands of years. Absolutely men feel self conscious, have body norms (which I violate most of!), and do things to themselves to make themselves feel more comfortable. But it’s a matter of extremes, pervasiveness, and actual material consequences for not following the norm. As a man I can get by with an awful lot and society won’t judge me harshly. Women that don’t constantly conform and change themselves are treated very harshly at work, at school, in public, and even in their own home. I mean, surely this is apparent? I worked for a major cosmetics company. They made billions in profit selling goop in a jar to women. They struggled to introduce men’s lines (soap? Shaving supplies? Cologne?). That’s a gender issue - why is it so important to scorch your skin and make yourself look like a clown by painting color all of your face? It isn’t due to convenience, and it’s is absolutely a gender aligned thing.
  - xboxnolifes 3y ago
    Put skin lotion with a strong scent in a pint container that is labeled like wood stain and sell it at tractor supply. I'd bet that reach an unexpected audience.
Barrin92 3y ago
>My pet theory is this is because tanning is a product of a life of leisure, It's the other way around. The cultural difference between Asia and especially America is that working class and mass culture determine aesthetics in the US (and downstream in Europe). When Jeff Bezos hits the gym and poses in a truck with a cowboy hat and big arms, and Zuckerberg styles himself as a MMA fighter its because that's what reigns supreme in culture. They don't want to be seen as living life's of leisure, but as hard workers and ordinary salt of the earth people. Paleness still is a sign of leisure and traditional "refinement", it's just that this is not an aspirational value in the West, but it still is to some extent in Asia.
- bluGill 3y ago
  That depends. When most work outsade then tan is a sign of poor, the rich work inside and don't tan. When most work inside desk jobs tan is a sign of leasure
- watwut 3y ago
  The actual working class in USA looks nothing like Bezos or Zuckerberg. Ordinary salt of the earth people do not look like that.
- twic 3y ago
  It's not this. I know ladies who work on their tans, and they don't put faux working class outfits on over them, they dress up hard. A tan indeed signals that you have enough money and free time to swab around in the Mediterranean. I don't think a tan even is naturally associated with being working-class in Europe or North America. Factory workers don't spend a lot of time outside. That's really a meme from tropical agrarian countries.
- Nevermark 3y ago
  Bezos and Zuck are playing all the cards of wealth. They are demonstrating (to themselves as much as others) that they can spend enormous amounts of effort and cognition on building wealth, but still have time, creative spirit, and social finesse required to do anything else, go on any adventure, hang out with anyone. Elite fitness is not a poor or overworked person's game. Neither is hanging out with subcultures, which has nothing to do with actually being in a subculture. Etc.
corethree 3y ago
Men are superficially judged by women as objects of success and capability. That's why men are so afraid to show weakness or vulnerability. It's sexual selection as women are selecting men based off of this and masculinity. The judgement is so pervasive across cultures and time that the behavior is not learned but inborn. Biological. The same is said for women. Success in choosing a mate is biased towards youth as youthful mates are more successful at reproduction. Additionally feminine traits are indicators of good maternal instincts which further increases the success of the offspring. So men make their choice off of this and this choice has influenced female behavior. Thus women have evolved behaviors to emphasize traits related to showing off their physical and youthful beauty. It's also largely biological. This isn't a blame game thing. It's just the way things are. You don't blame men for beauty culture any more than you blame women for men suppressing their emotions and often taking on the full burden and stress of raising a family unit. You have a lot of daughters so you feel empathy for them. But if you had sons you'll realize reality is just as harsh on them from different perspectives. It's just the way it is.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Why do threads like this always turn into some borderline incel shitshow? Women do have goals in life other than attracting successful, powerful, rich and good looking alph males, you know?
  - fnordpiglet 3y ago
    In 47 years I’ve met precisely zero who are seeking men for these attributes. Obviously no one is looking for someone unemployed to support in their alcoholism or whatever, but the women I’ve known in my life pursue companionship primarily, although sadly often validation that they’re worthwhile. I’m not saying these women don’t exist, I’m sure they do. Likewise I’ve not really met men that collect trophy women either, but I probably run in specific circles of pretty well educated folks less motivated by money and status.
    - corethree 3y ago
      Anecdotal data is often wrong in this regard. Especially because women are not self aware and they, like men, lie to themselves and to others. In the circles you run in, most likely partners come together as couples because of compromise. It's the best possible stable matching pairing they can get. That's the majority of relationships. It's impossible for people get their ideal. Fortunately we have raw data to validate my points and invalidate your anecdotal data. Every point I made comes from raw correlation. Younger women get more attention from men, richer, more powerful and more masculine men get more attention from women. Look it up. The overwhelming majority of psychological studies on human mating behavior illustrates this exact pattern that is pervasive in all cultures. You run in circles less motivated by money and status but I can tell you. A good number of those people aren't motivated by that because they can't get that status. People focus on what they achieve, if they can't get status through wealth, a lot of men tend to attempt to achieve mastery somewhere else. Society is driven by status and power. A lot of a women's success/power is unfortunately driven by her looks. She can choose to pursue alternative paths to success but there's no denying that looks is an avenue women have easier access to then men, and it's through looks and the ability to manipulate men that women achieve most of their power. When you look at the world. The stereotypical tropes you see in the media, movies and stories it's obvious what the generality is. Yet you choose to view the world through the lens of your "circle" and you admittedly say that your circle could be biased. So what's with all the culture surrounding the obvious stereotype? Just made up fantasies out of thin air? Come on let's be real here. Additionally I can't imagine a man who doesn't understand why a unemployed 25 year old woman is much more attractive then a rich doctor 38 year old woman. I'm a woman and it took me a bit to understand this concept because we think exactly oppositely to men, and I've rarely met other women who totally get it. But men... All men should get it.
geodel 3y ago
> As a man that’s a shocking way to live, we are taught to belch and fart and dress the way we feel comfortable. Don’t shave for a few days? Handsome. True. I have seen tons of training programs in Asia where I grew up, and now in US where I work, that teach men how to fart and belch at parties just to feel comfortable in their skin.

cousin_it 3y ago

> In fact the lengths women went to intrigued me, partially because it was a sort of subjugation for my pleasure. They don't do it for your pleasure. They do it to get something they want - attract someone cool. Men also do lots of things for that reason.

fnordpiglet 3y ago
Sorry, how does attracting someone cool not mean doing it for the pleasure of the someone cool? That seems like exactly the reason they’re doing it. The attraction isn’t like magnetism, it’s not a physical force. It’s by creating pleasure in the opposite sex, creating an image that’s pleasing to them. So, yes, they in fact do do it for my pleasure. And I’m not saying that’s necessarily a wrong thing. I do things to attract people as well. They also do it for their own - I’m not saying women don’t want to be more beautiful only for men’s pleasure. But my point is, what a strange structure we have that half of the humans on earth feel profoundly and unshakably uncomfortable by being simply their selves without modifications? Like, literally can’t be seen in public without applying substances to their face to change how they look?
- cousin_it 3y ago
  > Sorry, how does attracting someone cool not mean doing it for the pleasure of the someone cool? The same way you might wish to get hired by a highly paying company, but not have any particular desire for that company to become richer. These two things are just not connected much.
hef19898 3y ago
Did it ever occur to both, you and OP, that women do that for themselves? Just wondering.
- watwut 3y ago
  That theory is tested when women are alone. While some women do use make up and everything, most women at home just don't care.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Just like I accept bad hair day at home. So, you do everything you do in presence of others to impress someone else?
    - watwut 3y ago
      If you accept bad hair at home and not in public, pretty clearly it is not that you care about hair for yourself. You clearly do it for other people and their perception of you.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        Ah, of course! Thank you for enlightening me! And there I was, thinking I am not caring about appearance just because I woory whom of the people I meet is interested in me! /s
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  “”” They also do it for their own - I’m not saying women don’t want to be more beautiful only for men’s pleasure. “””

norwalkbear 3y ago

What are you talking about? Men's plastic surgery, body dysmorphia, and suicides are at an all time high. It's not a gender issue. White men tan until they get cancer, asian and black men whiten their skin. Even legendary baseball player Sammy Sosa bleached his skin!

fnordpiglet 3y ago
Sorry, I didn’t mean to say it’s exclusively women. Just that it’s almost all women, for thousands of years. Absolutely men feel self conscious, have body norms (which I violate most of!), and do things to themselves to make themselves feel more comfortable. But it’s a matter of extremes, pervasiveness, and actual material consequences for not following the norm. As a man I can get by with an awful lot and society won’t judge me harshly. Women that don’t constantly conform and change themselves are treated very harshly at work, at school, in public, and even in their own home. I mean, surely this is apparent? I worked for a major cosmetics company. They made billions in profit selling goop in a jar to women. They struggled to introduce men’s lines (soap? Shaving supplies? Cologne?). That’s a gender issue - why is it so important to scorch your skin and make yourself look like a clown by painting color all of your face? It isn’t due to convenience, and it’s is absolutely a gender aligned thing.
- xboxnolifes 3y ago
  Put skin lotion with a strong scent in a pint container that is labeled like wood stain and sell it at tractor supply. I'd bet that reach an unexpected audience.

Barrin92 3y ago

>My pet theory is this is because tanning is a product of a life of leisure, It's the other way around. The cultural difference between Asia and especially America is that working class and mass culture determine aesthetics in the US (and downstream in Europe). When Jeff Bezos hits the gym and poses in a truck with a cowboy hat and big arms, and Zuckerberg styles himself as a MMA fighter its because that's what reigns supreme in culture. They don't want to be seen as living life's of leisure, but as hard workers and ordinary salt of the earth people. Paleness still is a sign of leisure and traditional "refinement", it's just that this is not an aspirational value in the West, but it still is to some extent in Asia.

bluGill 3y ago
That depends. When most work outsade then tan is a sign of poor, the rich work inside and don't tan. When most work inside desk jobs tan is a sign of leasure
watwut 3y ago
The actual working class in USA looks nothing like Bezos or Zuckerberg. Ordinary salt of the earth people do not look like that.
twic 3y ago
It's not this. I know ladies who work on their tans, and they don't put faux working class outfits on over them, they dress up hard. A tan indeed signals that you have enough money and free time to swab around in the Mediterranean. I don't think a tan even is naturally associated with being working-class in Europe or North America. Factory workers don't spend a lot of time outside. That's really a meme from tropical agrarian countries.
Nevermark 3y ago
Bezos and Zuck are playing all the cards of wealth. They are demonstrating (to themselves as much as others) that they can spend enormous amounts of effort and cognition on building wealth, but still have time, creative spirit, and social finesse required to do anything else, go on any adventure, hang out with anyone. Elite fitness is not a poor or overworked person's game. Neither is hanging out with subcultures, which has nothing to do with actually being in a subculture. Etc.

corethree 3y ago

Men are superficially judged by women as objects of success and capability. That's why men are so afraid to show weakness or vulnerability. It's sexual selection as women are selecting men based off of this and masculinity. The judgement is so pervasive across cultures and time that the behavior is not learned but inborn. Biological. The same is said for women. Success in choosing a mate is biased towards youth as youthful mates are more successful at reproduction. Additionally feminine traits are indicators of good maternal instincts which further increases the success of the offspring. So men make their choice off of this and this choice has influenced female behavior. Thus women have evolved behaviors to emphasize traits related to showing off their physical and youthful beauty. It's also largely biological. This isn't a blame game thing. It's just the way things are. You don't blame men for beauty culture any more than you blame women for men suppressing their emotions and often taking on the full burden and stress of raising a family unit. You have a lot of daughters so you feel empathy for them. But if you had sons you'll realize reality is just as harsh on them from different perspectives. It's just the way it is.

hef19898 3y ago
Why do threads like this always turn into some borderline incel shitshow? Women do have goals in life other than attracting successful, powerful, rich and good looking alph males, you know?
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  In 47 years I’ve met precisely zero who are seeking men for these attributes. Obviously no one is looking for someone unemployed to support in their alcoholism or whatever, but the women I’ve known in my life pursue companionship primarily, although sadly often validation that they’re worthwhile. I’m not saying these women don’t exist, I’m sure they do. Likewise I’ve not really met men that collect trophy women either, but I probably run in specific circles of pretty well educated folks less motivated by money and status.
  - corethree 3y ago
    Anecdotal data is often wrong in this regard. Especially because women are not self aware and they, like men, lie to themselves and to others. In the circles you run in, most likely partners come together as couples because of compromise. It's the best possible stable matching pairing they can get. That's the majority of relationships. It's impossible for people get their ideal. Fortunately we have raw data to validate my points and invalidate your anecdotal data. Every point I made comes from raw correlation. Younger women get more attention from men, richer, more powerful and more masculine men get more attention from women. Look it up. The overwhelming majority of psychological studies on human mating behavior illustrates this exact pattern that is pervasive in all cultures. You run in circles less motivated by money and status but I can tell you. A good number of those people aren't motivated by that because they can't get that status. People focus on what they achieve, if they can't get status through wealth, a lot of men tend to attempt to achieve mastery somewhere else. Society is driven by status and power. A lot of a women's success/power is unfortunately driven by her looks. She can choose to pursue alternative paths to success but there's no denying that looks is an avenue women have easier access to then men, and it's through looks and the ability to manipulate men that women achieve most of their power. When you look at the world. The stereotypical tropes you see in the media, movies and stories it's obvious what the generality is. Yet you choose to view the world through the lens of your "circle" and you admittedly say that your circle could be biased. So what's with all the culture surrounding the obvious stereotype? Just made up fantasies out of thin air? Come on let's be real here. Additionally I can't imagine a man who doesn't understand why a unemployed 25 year old woman is much more attractive then a rich doctor 38 year old woman. I'm a woman and it took me a bit to understand this concept because we think exactly oppositely to men, and I've rarely met other women who totally get it. But men... All men should get it.

geodel 3y ago

> As a man that’s a shocking way to live, we are taught to belch and fart and dress the way we feel comfortable. Don’t shave for a few days? Handsome. True. I have seen tons of training programs in Asia where I grew up, and now in US where I work, that teach men how to fart and belch at parties just to feel comfortable in their skin.