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> I don't get how we can reason about God existence (or not) using plain logic. Aristotle has you covered: * https://tofspot.blogspot.com/2014/07/first-way-so

> I don't get how we can reason about God existence (or not) using plain logic. Aristotle has you covered: * https://tofspot.blogspot.com/2014/07/first-way-some-background.html https://tofspot.blogspot.com/2014/07/first-way-some-backgrou... * https://tofspot.blogspot.com/2014/08/first-way-moving-tale.html https://tofspot.blogspot.com/2014/08/first-way-moving-tale.h... * https://tofspot.blogspot.com/2014/09/first-way-part-ii-two-lemmas-make-lemma.html https://tofspot.blogspot.com/2014/09/first-way-part-ii-two-l... * https://tofspot.blogspot.com/2014/10/first-way-part-iii-big-kahuna.html https://tofspot.blogspot.com/2014/10/first-way-part-iii-big-... * https://tofspot.blogspot.com/2014/11/first-way-part-iv-cascades.html https://tofspot.blogspot.com/2014/11/first-way-part-iv-casca... * First 30m of this podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfQldsGrMfk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfQldsGrMfk Book which covers arguments from Aristotle, Plotinus, Augustine, Aquinas, Leibniz: * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35592365-five-proofs-of-the-existence-of-god https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35592365-five-proofs-of-... The TL; DR is: 1. Some things in the world are changing. (Observation) 2. Whatever is changing† is being changed by another. (Lemma 1) https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7SKlRTfkUieN3dGVkhNTi1SQUU/edit https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7SKlRTfkUieN3dGVkhNTi1SQUU/... 3. There cannot be an infinite regress of instrumental changers. (Lemma 2) http://www.academia.edu/4415427/There_Must_Be_A_First_Why_Thomas_Aquinas_Rejects_Infinite_Essentially_Ordered_Causal_Series http://www.academia.edu/4415427/There_Must_Be_A_First_Why_Th... 4. Therefore, there must be a changer that is not itself being changed by another. † From kinēsis in Aristotle's Greek.

GoblinSlayer 3y ago
Change can happen as inertial motion, interaction isn't necessary for it, but yeah, Aristotle and Aquinas didn't know that inertial motion can last for long.
- throw0101b 3y ago
  > Change can happen as inertial motion […] That is one type of change; from Five Proofs (2017), Edward Feser, Chapter 1: The Aristotelean Proof (p. 17): > These examples illustrate four kinds of change: qualitative change (the coffee cools down); change with respect to location (the leaf falls from the tree); quantitative change (the puddle increases in size): and substantial change (a living things gives way to dead matter). That changes of these sorts occur is evident from our sensory experience of the world outside our minds. > […], interaction isn't necessary for it, […] Newton would disagree.
  - GoblinSlayer 3y ago
    According to Newton's first law inertial motion happens without interaction. What moves the inertially moving object? In Aristotelian mechanics inertial motion stops shortly after beginning, so for sustained motion the object must be moved by another. Falling leaf is not inertial motion, it's pulled by gravity, Aristotle didn't know about gravity, but Aquinas probably did as round Earth theory required the concept of gravity.

GoblinSlayer 3y ago

Change can happen as inertial motion, interaction isn't necessary for it, but yeah, Aristotle and Aquinas didn't know that inertial motion can last for long.

throw0101b 3y ago
> Change can happen as inertial motion […] That is one type of change; from Five Proofs (2017), Edward Feser, Chapter 1: The Aristotelean Proof (p. 17): > These examples illustrate four kinds of change: qualitative change (the coffee cools down); change with respect to location (the leaf falls from the tree); quantitative change (the puddle increases in size): and substantial change (a living things gives way to dead matter). That changes of these sorts occur is evident from our sensory experience of the world outside our minds. > […], interaction isn't necessary for it, […] Newton would disagree.
- GoblinSlayer 3y ago
  According to Newton's first law inertial motion happens without interaction. What moves the inertially moving object? In Aristotelian mechanics inertial motion stops shortly after beginning, so for sustained motion the object must be moved by another. Falling leaf is not inertial motion, it's pulled by gravity, Aristotle didn't know about gravity, but Aquinas probably did as round Earth theory required the concept of gravity.