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I'm still unclear on why the need for a border router exists at all. My zigbee devices work just fine without access to my local network or the Internet, but th

I'm still unclear on why the need for a border router exists at all. My zigbee devices work just fine without access to my local network or the Internet, but the same devices using matter/thread claim to need a border router? What are they doing differently than my zigbee stuff?

alphabettsy 3y ago
The protocol and network are open, but it’s encrypted and as far as I can tell none of the major vendors allow you to export or import the keys you would need to add a bridge from a competing platform.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Sounds like an FTC complaint around interoperability and anticompetitive behavior.
- tjoff 3y ago
  Isn't that what the Matter QR codes are for? Which I thought were mandatory for all Matter products? I guess a loophole might be to make the border router matter compatible but none of the actual devices. At which point you really shouldn't be buying them anyway.
  - alphabettsy 3y ago
    No. Thread and Matter are not the same thing. Matter is an interoperability standard so that devices expose a common API. It works over WiFi, Bluetooth or Thread currently. Thread is a network protocol like WiFi or Bluetooth. The QR codes are used for pairing devices to a Matter controller.
    - tjoff 3y ago
      Pairing it to the controller, yes. Not the border router. The controller could talk to the border router if needed but that should be it.
      - tjoff 3y ago
        That was a bit unclear by me. Zigbee relies solely on noone being able to MITM the pairing process, where the security lies in the short window of opportunity and short range. But Matter (and thus the Thread devices we talk about here) has an out of band mechanism for sending keys, since it requires QR + BLE. I guess your point is that you typically can't form a Thread mesh between different border routers of different vendors. Which is unfortunate, but solvable. Don't buy/use border routers from such vendors. Because that problem is not the same as not being able to use a device from vendor X on a non-X border router.
ianburrell 3y ago
For Zigbee, you need a hub for apps to work because the Zigbee protocol is its own thing. If you are lucky, it is Home Assistant and can use that on local network. If you aren't using HA, then it is custom hub that talks over the Internet to just that app. Big advantage of Matter/Thread is that don't need a hub with its software. It is IP-based protocol. On Wifi or Bluetooth, your phone talks directly to the devices. On Thread, you need a gateway to translate from Wifi to Thread. Your phone only needs to know about Matter. I don't think Matter devices talk over the Internet, I think they use non-routable IPv6 addresses. You can use HA to control over Internet but that uses the HA app. I don't know what other apps do, probably the same custom thing as with Zigbee. Matter works similarly to HomeKit, with direct access to devices, but Matter adds the low-power Thread. It is also standardized so that could have generic Matter app instead of every device being its own app. And can add support to HA instead of custom Wifi and Bluetooth devices.
- Tijdreiziger 3y ago
  You only need a hub if you want to control your devices from your LAN. You don’t need one if you only use Zigbee steering devices.
- deleted 3y ago
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- deleted 3y ago
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- Volundr 3y ago
  That makes a lot more sense if it's supposed to talk directly to my phone. Would I still need a router if I already have HomeAssistant with a thread usb module? I don't really care about bypassing HA, I'm fine with keeping the hub.
  - ianburrell 3y ago
    If using Thread from HA server, then it would work the similar to Zigbee (and they use the same radio). I think HA can do Matter over Wifi and Bluetooth. Some Google Home devices can be Thread hub, and Google Home can do Matter directly. iOS 16 has Matter support but not sure what that means. That may be the advantage that don't need to download app for each device but will be builtin to OS.

alphabettsy 3y ago

The protocol and network are open, but it’s encrypted and as far as I can tell none of the major vendors allow you to export or import the keys you would need to add a bridge from a competing platform.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Sounds like an FTC complaint around interoperability and anticompetitive behavior.
tjoff 3y ago
Isn't that what the Matter QR codes are for? Which I thought were mandatory for all Matter products? I guess a loophole might be to make the border router matter compatible but none of the actual devices. At which point you really shouldn't be buying them anyway.
- alphabettsy 3y ago
  No. Thread and Matter are not the same thing. Matter is an interoperability standard so that devices expose a common API. It works over WiFi, Bluetooth or Thread currently. Thread is a network protocol like WiFi or Bluetooth. The QR codes are used for pairing devices to a Matter controller.
  - tjoff 3y ago
    Pairing it to the controller, yes. Not the border router. The controller could talk to the border router if needed but that should be it.
    - tjoff 3y ago
      That was a bit unclear by me. Zigbee relies solely on noone being able to MITM the pairing process, where the security lies in the short window of opportunity and short range. But Matter (and thus the Thread devices we talk about here) has an out of band mechanism for sending keys, since it requires QR + BLE. I guess your point is that you typically can't form a Thread mesh between different border routers of different vendors. Which is unfortunate, but solvable. Don't buy/use border routers from such vendors. Because that problem is not the same as not being able to use a device from vendor X on a non-X border router.

ianburrell 3y ago

For Zigbee, you need a hub for apps to work because the Zigbee protocol is its own thing. If you are lucky, it is Home Assistant and can use that on local network. If you aren't using HA, then it is custom hub that talks over the Internet to just that app. Big advantage of Matter/Thread is that don't need a hub with its software. It is IP-based protocol. On Wifi or Bluetooth, your phone talks directly to the devices. On Thread, you need a gateway to translate from Wifi to Thread. Your phone only needs to know about Matter. I don't think Matter devices talk over the Internet, I think they use non-routable IPv6 addresses. You can use HA to control over Internet but that uses the HA app. I don't know what other apps do, probably the same custom thing as with Zigbee. Matter works similarly to HomeKit, with direct access to devices, but Matter adds the low-power Thread. It is also standardized so that could have generic Matter app instead of every device being its own app. And can add support to HA instead of custom Wifi and Bluetooth devices.

Tijdreiziger 3y ago
You only need a hub if you want to control your devices from your LAN. You don’t need one if you only use Zigbee steering devices.
deleted 3y ago
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Volundr 3y ago
That makes a lot more sense if it's supposed to talk directly to my phone. Would I still need a router if I already have HomeAssistant with a thread usb module? I don't really care about bypassing HA, I'm fine with keeping the hub.
- ianburrell 3y ago
  If using Thread from HA server, then it would work the similar to Zigbee (and they use the same radio). I think HA can do Matter over Wifi and Bluetooth. Some Google Home devices can be Thread hub, and Google Home can do Matter directly. iOS 16 has Matter support but not sure what that means. That may be the advantage that don't need to download app for each device but will be builtin to OS.