6 ms·

TLDR: Matter with Philips Hue is unreliable. Matter doesn't support adaptive lighting on HomeKit (yet). My two cents: thread and matter has the potential to be

TLDR: Matter with Philips Hue is unreliable. Matter doesn't support adaptive lighting on HomeKit (yet). My two cents: thread and matter has the potential to be more reliable than WiFi. The biggest blocker is that thread border routers have no vendor interoperability (you have to buy a bridge for every vendor)

tjoff 3y ago
> The biggest blocker is that thread border routers have no vendor interoperability (you have to buy a bridge for every vendor) Why? They all work ~fine on zigbee which is pretty much the exact same thing just with even less oversight. I haven't bought into matter/thread because I haven't found a single device I want yet.
- ianburrell 3y ago
  Zigbee and Thread are not the same thing. They use the same 802.15.4 radio. Zigbee does its own wireless mesh protocol, and then adds profiles on top. With home automation being most common. Thread uses 6LoWPAN to run IPv6 on 802.15.4. Thread adds a mesh network. Matter is the home automation protocol on top of that.
  - tjoff 3y ago
    From an systems perspective they are the same thing. Zigbee vs. Thread is just transport. The protocol on top of that is what matters and the sole purpose (from my narrow perspective) of Thread+Matter was that this would be a team effort to allow different vendors to talk to eachother. And with that in mind IPv6 feels like a decent choice. If vendors don't respect that foundation then the whole point of Matter+Thread is just gone.
- Tijdreiziger 3y ago
  Even on Zigbee, there are slight incompatibilities between vendors.
- rubatuga 3y ago
  You can't add zigbee lights from IKEA to a philips hue bridge and have them show up in homekit. [0] [0]: https://www.reddit.com/r/Hue/comments/cpbu9w/ikea_tradfri_bulbs_hue_app_apple_home_kit/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Hue/comments/cpbu9w/ikea_tradfri_bu...
  - tjoff 3y ago
    That's an issue with the hue bridge though (and maybe homekit). There certainly are issues with the zigbee devices, but that is not it.
upon_drumhead 3y ago
I literary couldn’t get any eve matter devices to work at all on my network. Turns out matter requires some ipv6 features my router doesn’t support and isn’t easily found out what routers do support it. I’m a firm believer in matter and threads future, but ipv6s home network mess is going to hamper it for years imho.
- alphabettsy 3y ago
  IPv6 Unicast and Multicast. Seems like any consumer router made in the last decade should work as long as IPv6 is enabled. Consumer routers vary widely in software quality though.
  - upon_drumhead 3y ago
    No, it also needs to support: ICMPv6 (type 133) Router Solicitation (RS) ICMPv6 (type 134) Routing Advertisement (RA) Which my xfinity provided router does not. I spent weeks with support emails between xfinity and eve trying to get it sorted out before eve declared it an unsupported router and refunded me the purchase.
    - rubatuga 3y ago
      RA and RS packets form the basis of IPv6, so objectively the router from Xfinity does not support IPv6.
    - alphabettsy 3y ago
      Fair enough. I haven’t used an ISP provided router in a decade. I can’t justify paying more for what’s usually pretty crap.
      - aksss 3y ago
        Right but isn’t this kind of illustrating the problem with the state of home automation in general? I mean, if you care enough to know about the features of your router, your also likely the kind of person who can pay attention to and work out all the kinks in home automation, and it’s fun and really cool when you get it working. But for 90% of the population home automation is as elusive and as prohibitive as quality home espresso - expensive, delicate, and requires all the attention of a niche hobby. Not that most people aren't smart enough to figure it out, but for most people the juice isn’t with the squeeze. All the COTS hardware for easy implementation is a closed cul-de-sac and rather mediocre, and is condemned to be a neat gimmick that quickly loses its luster.
dharmab 3y ago
In my personal experience, Phillips Hue is unreliable in general. I just replaced every Hue bulb in my home because one in four had either turned inti a flickering haunted house prop or failed entirely.
- alphabettsy 3y ago
  In my experience they have been the most rock solid piece of all the smarthome tech for a decade for me in multiple homes and apartments. I still have and use the original bulbs that came in my first starter kit.
  - dharmab 3y ago
    Some of the failed bulbs were purchased after 2020. I suspect quality has declined.
- shepherdjerred 3y ago
  I have something like 50 lights from them and only one has ever given me trouble
- cjdell 3y ago
  For me, Phillips Hue has been the only bulb to have NOT done this, despite being the oldest. But the cheaper bulbs I've bought on Amazon have all started flickering or just out right failed completely. This has really enforced the "buy cheap buy twice" idea in my mind. It's possible you've been scammed. I suspect there's a big market in selling knock off Hue bulbs because they can mark up the price so much more.
Volundr 3y ago
I'm still unclear on why the need for a border router exists at all. My zigbee devices work just fine without access to my local network or the Internet, but the same devices using matter/thread claim to need a border router? What are they doing differently than my zigbee stuff?
- alphabettsy 3y ago
  The protocol and network are open, but it’s encrypted and as far as I can tell none of the major vendors allow you to export or import the keys you would need to add a bridge from a competing platform.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Sounds like an FTC complaint around interoperability and anticompetitive behavior.
  - tjoff 3y ago
    Isn't that what the Matter QR codes are for? Which I thought were mandatory for all Matter products? I guess a loophole might be to make the border router matter compatible but none of the actual devices. At which point you really shouldn't be buying them anyway.
    - alphabettsy 3y ago
      No. Thread and Matter are not the same thing. Matter is an interoperability standard so that devices expose a common API. It works over WiFi, Bluetooth or Thread currently. Thread is a network protocol like WiFi or Bluetooth. The QR codes are used for pairing devices to a Matter controller.
      - tjoff 3y ago
        Pairing it to the controller, yes. Not the border router. The controller could talk to the border router if needed but that should be it.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

tjoff 3y ago

> The biggest blocker is that thread border routers have no vendor interoperability (you have to buy a bridge for every vendor) Why? They all work ~fine on zigbee which is pretty much the exact same thing just with even less oversight. I haven't bought into matter/thread because I haven't found a single device I want yet.

ianburrell 3y ago
Zigbee and Thread are not the same thing. They use the same 802.15.4 radio. Zigbee does its own wireless mesh protocol, and then adds profiles on top. With home automation being most common. Thread uses 6LoWPAN to run IPv6 on 802.15.4. Thread adds a mesh network. Matter is the home automation protocol on top of that.
- tjoff 3y ago
  From an systems perspective they are the same thing. Zigbee vs. Thread is just transport. The protocol on top of that is what matters and the sole purpose (from my narrow perspective) of Thread+Matter was that this would be a team effort to allow different vendors to talk to eachother. And with that in mind IPv6 feels like a decent choice. If vendors don't respect that foundation then the whole point of Matter+Thread is just gone.
Tijdreiziger 3y ago
Even on Zigbee, there are slight incompatibilities between vendors.
rubatuga 3y ago
You can't add zigbee lights from IKEA to a philips hue bridge and have them show up in homekit. [0] [0]: https://www.reddit.com/r/Hue/comments/cpbu9w/ikea_tradfri_bulbs_hue_app_apple_home_kit/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Hue/comments/cpbu9w/ikea_tradfri_bu...
- tjoff 3y ago
  That's an issue with the hue bridge though (and maybe homekit). There certainly are issues with the zigbee devices, but that is not it.

upon_drumhead 3y ago

I literary couldn’t get any eve matter devices to work at all on my network. Turns out matter requires some ipv6 features my router doesn’t support and isn’t easily found out what routers do support it. I’m a firm believer in matter and threads future, but ipv6s home network mess is going to hamper it for years imho.

alphabettsy 3y ago
IPv6 Unicast and Multicast. Seems like any consumer router made in the last decade should work as long as IPv6 is enabled. Consumer routers vary widely in software quality though.
- upon_drumhead 3y ago
  No, it also needs to support: ICMPv6 (type 133) Router Solicitation (RS) ICMPv6 (type 134) Routing Advertisement (RA) Which my xfinity provided router does not. I spent weeks with support emails between xfinity and eve trying to get it sorted out before eve declared it an unsupported router and refunded me the purchase.
  - rubatuga 3y ago
    RA and RS packets form the basis of IPv6, so objectively the router from Xfinity does not support IPv6.
  - alphabettsy 3y ago
    Fair enough. I haven’t used an ISP provided router in a decade. I can’t justify paying more for what’s usually pretty crap.
    - aksss 3y ago
      Right but isn’t this kind of illustrating the problem with the state of home automation in general? I mean, if you care enough to know about the features of your router, your also likely the kind of person who can pay attention to and work out all the kinks in home automation, and it’s fun and really cool when you get it working. But for 90% of the population home automation is as elusive and as prohibitive as quality home espresso - expensive, delicate, and requires all the attention of a niche hobby. Not that most people aren't smart enough to figure it out, but for most people the juice isn’t with the squeeze. All the COTS hardware for easy implementation is a closed cul-de-sac and rather mediocre, and is condemned to be a neat gimmick that quickly loses its luster.

dharmab 3y ago

In my personal experience, Phillips Hue is unreliable in general. I just replaced every Hue bulb in my home because one in four had either turned inti a flickering haunted house prop or failed entirely.

alphabettsy 3y ago
In my experience they have been the most rock solid piece of all the smarthome tech for a decade for me in multiple homes and apartments. I still have and use the original bulbs that came in my first starter kit.
- dharmab 3y ago
  Some of the failed bulbs were purchased after 2020. I suspect quality has declined.
shepherdjerred 3y ago
I have something like 50 lights from them and only one has ever given me trouble
cjdell 3y ago
For me, Phillips Hue has been the only bulb to have NOT done this, despite being the oldest. But the cheaper bulbs I've bought on Amazon have all started flickering or just out right failed completely. This has really enforced the "buy cheap buy twice" idea in my mind. It's possible you've been scammed. I suspect there's a big market in selling knock off Hue bulbs because they can mark up the price so much more.

Volundr 3y ago

I'm still unclear on why the need for a border router exists at all. My zigbee devices work just fine without access to my local network or the Internet, but the same devices using matter/thread claim to need a border router? What are they doing differently than my zigbee stuff?

alphabettsy 3y ago
The protocol and network are open, but it’s encrypted and as far as I can tell none of the major vendors allow you to export or import the keys you would need to add a bridge from a competing platform.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Sounds like an FTC complaint around interoperability and anticompetitive behavior.
- tjoff 3y ago
  Isn't that what the Matter QR codes are for? Which I thought were mandatory for all Matter products? I guess a loophole might be to make the border router matter compatible but none of the actual devices. At which point you really shouldn't be buying them anyway.
  - alphabettsy 3y ago
    No. Thread and Matter are not the same thing. Matter is an interoperability standard so that devices expose a common API. It works over WiFi, Bluetooth or Thread currently. Thread is a network protocol like WiFi or Bluetooth. The QR codes are used for pairing devices to a Matter controller.
    - tjoff 3y ago
      Pairing it to the controller, yes. Not the border router. The controller could talk to the border router if needed but that should be it.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]