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Yes, EVs. No need to build specialized energy storage systems. If we have 10s of millions of EVs (to start with) and eventually 100m+, thats a gigantic energy r

Yes, EVs. No need to build specialized energy storage systems. If we have 10s of millions of EVs (to start with) and eventually 100m+, thats a gigantic energy reservoir that you can dump all excess energy. The best part is some of that energy is used every day, freeing up capacity for tomorrow's free renewable production. And its distributed, no need to add new transmission lines, available to every grid, today.

adolph 3y ago
Seems like a key challenge is coordinating all the EV owners to undercharge and then plug in at the needed time.
- edent 3y ago
  That's how smart meter work. They can be told when the cheapest time is to charge a vehicle. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/electric-vehicle-smart-charging-smart-meter-demonstration-project https://www.gov.uk/guidance/electric-vehicle-smart-charging-...
- thelastgallon 3y ago
  It doesn't work like that. Car is always plugged in. On your app, you'll have settings to calibrate when to charge. All EV car apps have these settings.
- RetroTechie 3y ago
  Nothing that some vendor-supplied smarts (in the EV) + a "when do I need my EV" style app couldn't do.
bell-cot 3y ago
>> IF one [...], then spot-market electricity prices <= 0 are extremely interesting. >> [...] is gonna be limited. And the more popular such [...] > Yes, EVs [...] If there there are a zillion EVs, which cleverly charge up when the spot electrical price gets low, then those free-or-negative prices for electricity - which really seem to push people's buttons - will not actually happen. > No need to build specialized energy storage systems. I am not aware of either the electrical grid, or most current EV's & their charging hardware, being built to actually do this. A whole lot of specialized stuff will still need to be built.
- thelastgallon 3y ago
  > I am not aware of either the electrical grid, or most current EV's & their charging hardware, being built to actually do this. A whole lot of specialized stuff will still need to be built. Its already done, but not yet widely deployed. Virtual Power Plant. Tesla Electric customers report making as much as $150 a day: https://electrek.co/2023/07/05/tesla-electric-customers-report-making-150-day/ https://electrek.co/2023/07/05/tesla-electric-customers-repo...
- flir 3y ago
  > If there there are a zillion EVs, which cleverly charge up when the spot electrical price gets low, then those free-or-negative prices for electricity - which really seem to push people's buttons - will not actually happen. That's desirable, isn't it? You're trying to get to a point where the demand curve matches the supply curve. You want there to an expectation that supply-peak energy is going to be worth something at some point in the future, even if it isn't right now. (Assuming we're doing this in the private sector, of course). > I am not aware of either the electrical grid, or most current EV's & their charging hardware, being built to actually do this. I think it's called bidirectional charging.
  - pests 3y ago
    Right, but what EV supports bi directional charginf today without a $10,000 upgrade?
    - flir 3y ago
      Personally I reckon DC distribution in the home will catch on at some point. Keep the AC circuit for fridges and cookers, but shift everything else (TVs, computers, lights) on to DC. Not as comphrehensive as adding a DC-to-AC transformer to the system, and you won't be able to sell electricity back to the grid, but the hardware will be cheaper and avoiding the DC-to-AC step will increase efficiency.
      - mikewarot 3y ago
TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
> Yes, EVs. No that's a pipe dream. People are recommended to charge at night, when half of renewable energy is missing by definition (no sun is shining) and want to be charged at the morning, not discharged because there was no wind blowing and we needed to keep lights up in local town.
- thelastgallon 3y ago
  > People are recommended to charge at night Never saw this recommendation. Some people do, because they have time of use plans which offer completely free and renewable charging or cheaper[1]. And there is no time restriction on charging, cars are parked 22+ hours a day, you can charge anytime except when you drive. EVs can charge anytime power is negative or close to zero. 1) Your home charging is 100% free from 7:00 p.m. to 1:00 p.m. and 100% renewable all day, every day: https://www.txu.com/electricity-plans/free-ev-miles/electric-vehicle-resources https://www.txu.com/electricity-plans/free-ev-miles/electric...
- epistasis 3y ago
  You act like this recommendation is fixed and unchnagable, rather than merely a product of current grid conditions, namely cheap power at night. In reality, the low price is the recommendation. When day time power becomes cheap, that's when people will charge.

adolph 3y ago

Seems like a key challenge is coordinating all the EV owners to undercharge and then plug in at the needed time.

edent 3y ago
That's how smart meter work. They can be told when the cheapest time is to charge a vehicle. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/electric-vehicle-smart-charging-smart-meter-demonstration-project https://www.gov.uk/guidance/electric-vehicle-smart-charging-...
thelastgallon 3y ago
It doesn't work like that. Car is always plugged in. On your app, you'll have settings to calibrate when to charge. All EV car apps have these settings.
RetroTechie 3y ago
Nothing that some vendor-supplied smarts (in the EV) + a "when do I need my EV" style app couldn't do.

bell-cot 3y ago

>> IF one [...], then spot-market electricity prices <= 0 are extremely interesting. >> [...] is gonna be limited. And the more popular such [...] > Yes, EVs [...] If there there are a zillion EVs, which cleverly charge up when the spot electrical price gets low, then those free-or-negative prices for electricity - which really seem to push people's buttons - will not actually happen. > No need to build specialized energy storage systems. I am not aware of either the electrical grid, or most current EV's & their charging hardware, being built to actually do this. A whole lot of specialized stuff will still need to be built.

thelastgallon 3y ago
> I am not aware of either the electrical grid, or most current EV's & their charging hardware, being built to actually do this. A whole lot of specialized stuff will still need to be built. Its already done, but not yet widely deployed. Virtual Power Plant. Tesla Electric customers report making as much as $150 a day: https://electrek.co/2023/07/05/tesla-electric-customers-report-making-150-day/ https://electrek.co/2023/07/05/tesla-electric-customers-repo...
flir 3y ago
> If there there are a zillion EVs, which cleverly charge up when the spot electrical price gets low, then those free-or-negative prices for electricity - which really seem to push people's buttons - will not actually happen. That's desirable, isn't it? You're trying to get to a point where the demand curve matches the supply curve. You want there to an expectation that supply-peak energy is going to be worth something at some point in the future, even if it isn't right now. (Assuming we're doing this in the private sector, of course). > I am not aware of either the electrical grid, or most current EV's & their charging hardware, being built to actually do this. I think it's called bidirectional charging.
- pests 3y ago
  Right, but what EV supports bi directional charginf today without a $10,000 upgrade?
  - flir 3y ago
    Personally I reckon DC distribution in the home will catch on at some point. Keep the AC circuit for fridges and cookers, but shift everything else (TVs, computers, lights) on to DC. Not as comphrehensive as adding a DC-to-AC transformer to the system, and you won't be able to sell electricity back to the grid, but the hardware will be cheaper and avoiding the DC-to-AC step will increase efficiency.
    - mikewarot 3y ago

TheLoafOfBread 3y ago

> Yes, EVs. No that's a pipe dream. People are recommended to charge at night, when half of renewable energy is missing by definition (no sun is shining) and want to be charged at the morning, not discharged because there was no wind blowing and we needed to keep lights up in local town.

thelastgallon 3y ago
> People are recommended to charge at night Never saw this recommendation. Some people do, because they have time of use plans which offer completely free and renewable charging or cheaper[1]. And there is no time restriction on charging, cars are parked 22+ hours a day, you can charge anytime except when you drive. EVs can charge anytime power is negative or close to zero. 1) Your home charging is 100% free from 7:00 p.m. to 1:00 p.m. and 100% renewable all day, every day: https://www.txu.com/electricity-plans/free-ev-miles/electric-vehicle-resources https://www.txu.com/electricity-plans/free-ev-miles/electric...
epistasis 3y ago
You act like this recommendation is fixed and unchnagable, rather than merely a product of current grid conditions, namely cheap power at night. In reality, the low price is the recommendation. When day time power becomes cheap, that's when people will charge.