5 ms·

Can you please elaborate on that list? I've had a Model 3 for two and a half years and it's still the best driving experience I've ever had.

seanieb 3y ago
I've had my car for about the same length of time. It is fun to drive when it's working. The first two years were uneventful, but it was evident that the build quality was subpar and the software substandard. And I'm not referring to the entertainment system here, but rather the software that controls the car itself, which falls short compared to my Volvo XC60. The fly-by-wire system lacks the necessary redundancies and telemetry/logging to fail safely. My experience involved the car's computer malfunctioning while in lane-keeping cruise control (Autopilot, not FSD). The vehicle would abruptly and violently swerve out of the lane, crossing over the white line into adjacent lanes and towards barriers. Tesla initially attributed these issues to wheel alignment or tracking. It took several service appointments and months to convince them otherwise, requiring me to mount a GoPro in my car and dangerously recreate the issue, which randomly occurred after about 45 minutes of cruise control driving. It wasn't until I contacted their PR department and threatened to involve the press that they took the matter seriously. What a perilously flawed failure mode. Yet, throughout these months, during which the car swerved erratically at least 20 times, no alerts were triggered, nor were errors or crash dumps logged that could be detected by their technicians or the main office in California. It required GoPro footage from inside my car to highlight the issue. Their service process is Kafkaesque. Phone support is ineffective, and you're relegated to using a text box in the mobile app that only accepts small image attachments. Videos cannot be uploaded directly; they provide an email address, but emails can;'t contain links or they will be blocked and emails with large attachments won't work. Each interaction feels like starting from scratch, as they don't seem to review the history or notes of your issue. As for the humidity or fog in your headlights, they claim it's within specifications and will dissipate once the car warms up. There's so much more, phantom breaking at highway speeds, exaggerated range estimates, slow headlight dimming, headlights that need constant re-calibration, terrible rain sensors and wiper modes, etc. etc.
- sfjailbird 3y ago
  I rented a model 3 yesterday. I generally like the car, but the autopilot* was indeed a big letdown. It would exit cruise control/lane keeping mode occasionally due to 'system error'. This precipitated a DEFCON 5 type emergency with visual and audible alerts, not to mention sudden drop in speed and loss of automatic steering. Even when it runs nominally, it prompts you every 20 seconds or so to apply turning force to the wheel (counterintuitively, as you want to go straight in the lane). If you are momentarily distracted (like having a relaxed conversation) and miss the warning, boom, DEFCON 5. Do that a few times and now the car will actively prevent you using autopilot, like an overbearing mother. The feature that is supposed to make driving more enjoyable, instead ratcheting up anxiety towards almost giving everyone a heart attack. I drive other cars all the time and they do this fine. So weird. *autopilot = I am just talking about cruise control + lane keeping, i.e. press down on the stalk. Not sure about the naming.
  - cmrx64 3y ago
    DEFCON 5 is the lowest level, “normal”.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - jredwards 3y ago
    Pro-tip: rolling either of the thumb wheels counts as input. You don't have to turn the wheel.
    - myko 3y ago
      I didn't realize that - will have to try in the future
  - myko 3y ago
    > Even when it runs nominally, it prompts you every 20 seconds or so to apply turning force to the wheel (counterintuitively, as you want to go straight in the lane) This is a huge issue with Tesla's system, they were too cheap to actually detect hands on the wheel and instead train you to exert undue force on the wheel which can lead to steering incorrectly. The timing for the system is haphazard at best and often dings you for not having hands on the wheel when you do, but you were too busy driving to pay attention to the prompts.
ttymck 3y ago
What else have you driven?
- underdeserver 3y ago
  Admittedly nothing too impressive. Common sedans and SUVs. Several models of Toyota Corolla, a Land Cruiser, a VW Polo, Renault Zoe, Nissan Terrano II, Nissan Rogue, Prius, Mazda 2, Mazda 6, Dodge Charger, Hyundai Accent, Kia Nero. Bunch of others I'm forgetting; definitely no luxury brands. A couple of motorcycles, and a tank, once.
angarg12 3y ago
Same here, have a Model 3 for 1.5 years and so far my best car ever. Parts and material aren't top notch but I feel I get my money's worth. Unless the car becomes a pile of junk under me I don't see all the hate. As with any popular product, you'll find people with several sigmas of bad experience.
buffington 3y ago
Not the OP, but I've daily driven a Model 3 for several years now and have a list. It's not a huge list, and some of them aren't unique to Tesla, but a lot are. Problems that I think are unique to the Tesla: Even after 4+ years of driving, I still hate the door handles. They require so much more dexterity than "normal" car door handles. You gotta aim your thumb at a quarter sized spot, then push in so that your fingers have a chance to catch the lever before you pull your thumb away. Normal car doors are stupid enough that they could be opened by a lobster. When the Model 3 handles freeze (which happens where I live), the user manual instructs you to hit the handles with your fist. Like a caveman. How about real door handles? The entire top sheet of glass spontaneously shattered while just sitting in my garage. I was sweeping the other side of my garage one afternoon when there was what sounded like a gunshot. I looked over and saw that the top class window had just fully cracked diagonally across the entire pane. There were no rock chips on its front edge (a common precursor to full shatter), no kids standing on it (a less common precursor). My best guess is that the body of the car warmed up in the garage after coming in from the cold, but the glass itself wasn't yet warm enough and that was enough to cause thermal expansion that was incompatible with it wanting to remain whole. Cost $1500 to replace, and Tesla refused to cover it under warranty, claiming it was not a manufacturing defect. No appeal, no second opinion. Also, it was during covid, and it took 7 weeks for the glass to arrive. So for 7 weeks, I had a very big, open, sunroof. Then there's the UI. This is my single biggest gripe. Parts of it are objectively terrible. The part of the UI that tells you how fast your car is going is, compared to the rest of the UI, microscopic, and rendered in a grey on white background. It's not in your line of sight, which requires you to turn to look at it. I figured out a hack though - let someone else, like my wife, tell me when I'm speeding. That only works when she's in the car though. When she's not in the car and tells me I'm speeding, I tend to ignore her. When you're stopped at a stop, there are dancing grey car and truck models all over the place. There was a tiny old Toyota pickup truck next to me the other day, and the UI wanted to simultaneously render it as a traffic cone, a big box truck, a motorcycle, and then a sedan. It never could make up its mind, and decided to just place it sideways growing halfway out of the model of a box truck that was meant to represent the Toyota Corolla that was in front of me. What's the point of devoting more than a third of the UI to this endeavor? To show me how wrong the computer always is about what's around me? Here's a fun one that made it to my list super early into my ownership experience: sometimes the UI will reboot while you're driving 75MPH in the middle of rush hour traffic. That makes for some serious puckering, even if it's happened 10 times before. No worries though, after driving blind for about 2 minutes it comes back online. One time, it came back online to the "romance" app, showing a lovely fireplace and adjust the fans to gently blow warm air on me to set the mood. I was not in the mood. I was using the route navigation to get me someplace. Instead of knowing what exit to take, I was enjoying a warm fire. On an August afternoon in Los Angeles rush hour traffic. Then there's the Autopilot experience. Not Full Self Driving, but just Autopilot. When you're using it to stay within lanes, it'll aggressively try to center itself in the lane, which is good for staying in the lane, but if you pass an onramp, and the right lane line vanishes for that onramp to merge into the lane you're in, the car will violently align itself between the left lane line, and the onramp's right lane lane. It'll happily do that whether you're going 20 MPH or 100 MPH. I don't use Autopilot any more. When I go to work in the morning, while backing out the overlays that show your rear and side cameras will appear, but imagery from the cameras will often take over a minute to appear. But not always, and it's that part that's the most unsettling. Why be slow sometimes and not others? Let's talk about the front trunk latch. Is there an actual trick to close it the first time, gently? I still don't know how to best close it. I don't think I'm alone either. Yesterday while at a Super Charger I saw two different people trying to close their frunk at least 3 to 4 times each. One of them even got into an argument with their passenger for how best to do it. I rarely use my frunk anymore because I hate trying to close it. What's crazy to me is: despite all of what I just said, damn I love driving it. It's why I think Tesla is stupid for not pursing a bare bones, "dumb" version of the Model 3. Give it physical buttons, no driving assist fluff, real door handles, minimal glass. I'd trade in my current Model 3 for that, no question.

seanieb 3y ago

I've had my car for about the same length of time. It is fun to drive when it's working. The first two years were uneventful, but it was evident that the build quality was subpar and the software substandard. And I'm not referring to the entertainment system here, but rather the software that controls the car itself, which falls short compared to my Volvo XC60. The fly-by-wire system lacks the necessary redundancies and telemetry/logging to fail safely. My experience involved the car's computer malfunctioning while in lane-keeping cruise control (Autopilot, not FSD). The vehicle would abruptly and violently swerve out of the lane, crossing over the white line into adjacent lanes and towards barriers. Tesla initially attributed these issues to wheel alignment or tracking. It took several service appointments and months to convince them otherwise, requiring me to mount a GoPro in my car and dangerously recreate the issue, which randomly occurred after about 45 minutes of cruise control driving. It wasn't until I contacted their PR department and threatened to involve the press that they took the matter seriously. What a perilously flawed failure mode. Yet, throughout these months, during which the car swerved erratically at least 20 times, no alerts were triggered, nor were errors or crash dumps logged that could be detected by their technicians or the main office in California. It required GoPro footage from inside my car to highlight the issue. Their service process is Kafkaesque. Phone support is ineffective, and you're relegated to using a text box in the mobile app that only accepts small image attachments. Videos cannot be uploaded directly; they provide an email address, but emails can;'t contain links or they will be blocked and emails with large attachments won't work. Each interaction feels like starting from scratch, as they don't seem to review the history or notes of your issue. As for the humidity or fog in your headlights, they claim it's within specifications and will dissipate once the car warms up. There's so much more, phantom breaking at highway speeds, exaggerated range estimates, slow headlight dimming, headlights that need constant re-calibration, terrible rain sensors and wiper modes, etc. etc.

sfjailbird 3y ago
I rented a model 3 yesterday. I generally like the car, but the autopilot* was indeed a big letdown. It would exit cruise control/lane keeping mode occasionally due to 'system error'. This precipitated a DEFCON 5 type emergency with visual and audible alerts, not to mention sudden drop in speed and loss of automatic steering. Even when it runs nominally, it prompts you every 20 seconds or so to apply turning force to the wheel (counterintuitively, as you want to go straight in the lane). If you are momentarily distracted (like having a relaxed conversation) and miss the warning, boom, DEFCON 5. Do that a few times and now the car will actively prevent you using autopilot, like an overbearing mother. The feature that is supposed to make driving more enjoyable, instead ratcheting up anxiety towards almost giving everyone a heart attack. I drive other cars all the time and they do this fine. So weird. *autopilot = I am just talking about cruise control + lane keeping, i.e. press down on the stalk. Not sure about the naming.
- cmrx64 3y ago
  DEFCON 5 is the lowest level, “normal”.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- jredwards 3y ago
  Pro-tip: rolling either of the thumb wheels counts as input. You don't have to turn the wheel.
  - myko 3y ago
    I didn't realize that - will have to try in the future
- myko 3y ago
  > Even when it runs nominally, it prompts you every 20 seconds or so to apply turning force to the wheel (counterintuitively, as you want to go straight in the lane) This is a huge issue with Tesla's system, they were too cheap to actually detect hands on the wheel and instead train you to exert undue force on the wheel which can lead to steering incorrectly. The timing for the system is haphazard at best and often dings you for not having hands on the wheel when you do, but you were too busy driving to pay attention to the prompts.

ttymck 3y ago

What else have you driven?

underdeserver 3y ago
Admittedly nothing too impressive. Common sedans and SUVs. Several models of Toyota Corolla, a Land Cruiser, a VW Polo, Renault Zoe, Nissan Terrano II, Nissan Rogue, Prius, Mazda 2, Mazda 6, Dodge Charger, Hyundai Accent, Kia Nero. Bunch of others I'm forgetting; definitely no luxury brands. A couple of motorcycles, and a tank, once.

angarg12 3y ago

Same here, have a Model 3 for 1.5 years and so far my best car ever. Parts and material aren't top notch but I feel I get my money's worth. Unless the car becomes a pile of junk under me I don't see all the hate. As with any popular product, you'll find people with several sigmas of bad experience.

buffington 3y ago

Not the OP, but I've daily driven a Model 3 for several years now and have a list. It's not a huge list, and some of them aren't unique to Tesla, but a lot are. Problems that I think are unique to the Tesla: Even after 4+ years of driving, I still hate the door handles. They require so much more dexterity than "normal" car door handles. You gotta aim your thumb at a quarter sized spot, then push in so that your fingers have a chance to catch the lever before you pull your thumb away. Normal car doors are stupid enough that they could be opened by a lobster. When the Model 3 handles freeze (which happens where I live), the user manual instructs you to hit the handles with your fist. Like a caveman. How about real door handles? The entire top sheet of glass spontaneously shattered while just sitting in my garage. I was sweeping the other side of my garage one afternoon when there was what sounded like a gunshot. I looked over and saw that the top class window had just fully cracked diagonally across the entire pane. There were no rock chips on its front edge (a common precursor to full shatter), no kids standing on it (a less common precursor). My best guess is that the body of the car warmed up in the garage after coming in from the cold, but the glass itself wasn't yet warm enough and that was enough to cause thermal expansion that was incompatible with it wanting to remain whole. Cost $1500 to replace, and Tesla refused to cover it under warranty, claiming it was not a manufacturing defect. No appeal, no second opinion. Also, it was during covid, and it took 7 weeks for the glass to arrive. So for 7 weeks, I had a very big, open, sunroof. Then there's the UI. This is my single biggest gripe. Parts of it are objectively terrible. The part of the UI that tells you how fast your car is going is, compared to the rest of the UI, microscopic, and rendered in a grey on white background. It's not in your line of sight, which requires you to turn to look at it. I figured out a hack though - let someone else, like my wife, tell me when I'm speeding. That only works when she's in the car though. When she's not in the car and tells me I'm speeding, I tend to ignore her. When you're stopped at a stop, there are dancing grey car and truck models all over the place. There was a tiny old Toyota pickup truck next to me the other day, and the UI wanted to simultaneously render it as a traffic cone, a big box truck, a motorcycle, and then a sedan. It never could make up its mind, and decided to just place it sideways growing halfway out of the model of a box truck that was meant to represent the Toyota Corolla that was in front of me. What's the point of devoting more than a third of the UI to this endeavor? To show me how wrong the computer always is about what's around me? Here's a fun one that made it to my list super early into my ownership experience: sometimes the UI will reboot while you're driving 75MPH in the middle of rush hour traffic. That makes for some serious puckering, even if it's happened 10 times before. No worries though, after driving blind for about 2 minutes it comes back online. One time, it came back online to the "romance" app, showing a lovely fireplace and adjust the fans to gently blow warm air on me to set the mood. I was not in the mood. I was using the route navigation to get me someplace. Instead of knowing what exit to take, I was enjoying a warm fire. On an August afternoon in Los Angeles rush hour traffic. Then there's the Autopilot experience. Not Full Self Driving, but just Autopilot. When you're using it to stay within lanes, it'll aggressively try to center itself in the lane, which is good for staying in the lane, but if you pass an onramp, and the right lane line vanishes for that onramp to merge into the lane you're in, the car will violently align itself between the left lane line, and the onramp's right lane lane. It'll happily do that whether you're going 20 MPH or 100 MPH. I don't use Autopilot any more. When I go to work in the morning, while backing out the overlays that show your rear and side cameras will appear, but imagery from the cameras will often take over a minute to appear. But not always, and it's that part that's the most unsettling. Why be slow sometimes and not others? Let's talk about the front trunk latch. Is there an actual trick to close it the first time, gently? I still don't know how to best close it. I don't think I'm alone either. Yesterday while at a Super Charger I saw two different people trying to close their frunk at least 3 to 4 times each. One of them even got into an argument with their passenger for how best to do it. I rarely use my frunk anymore because I hate trying to close it. What's crazy to me is: despite all of what I just said, damn I love driving it. It's why I think Tesla is stupid for not pursing a bare bones, "dumb" version of the Model 3. Give it physical buttons, no driving assist fluff, real door handles, minimal glass. I'd trade in my current Model 3 for that, no question.