5 ms·

Hm, isn't it a risk to pay too much? If you've got enough money that you can't spend it in a lifetime, why continue to do extremely difficult work?

rapsey 3y ago
Most of these engineers are motivated by accomplishment. I very much doubt any of them would describe their work as soul draining.
- tmikaeld 3y ago
  I don't know, if I was financially independent, I'd do work that can be open sourced and free - get proper recognition - rather than giving it away to a corporation.
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    You're not exactly giving it away at 800K TC are you? :)
  - rapsey 3y ago
    That work would be far removed from the industry forefront. With none of the resources and team with you. It takes millions to develop, train and run these AI models. Your plan sounds dreadfully lonely to me.
    - idiliv 3y ago
      They could join Mistral AI, which has published weights for at least some of its models. Another option is Meta AI, which has published weights for Llama and Llama 2.
    - smallerfish 3y ago
      > dreadfully lonely On your deathbed you are likely not going to look back favorably at all the years you put in for bigcorp advancing the industry. Even if you do have a few white papers published, so what? Effectively nobody will remember them in 10 years anyway. Trying to find meaning by working for others doesn't pan out for most people. Bank the cash, get out when you can.
      - hhh 3y ago
        Sounds nihilistic, no thanks
        smallerfish 3y ago
        Exactly the opposite
      - rapsey 3y ago
        On my death bed I will only care about my kids and family. There is however hopefully a long time till I get there and during that time I would prefer to work on something awesome with good people. As we live in a capitalist system that is generally found in companies.
wetpaws 3y ago
800k will be around 400k post tax. Nowhere near a life changing sum in bay area.
literalAardvark 3y ago
Well, first off is not even hard to spend 800k Second, many smart people like to work.
- tmikaeld 3y ago
  > Well, first off is not even hard to spend 800k If you're buying a house, sure, but that's just the 1st year. > ..many smart people like to work. I do too, but life outside of work, being financially independent - that's tempting.
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    You're not going to net anywhere close to 800K. As the article notes, they're talking 300K base + 500K equity (which is illiquid) at the 'highest end.' (In reality the highest end is likely quite a bit higher, but with a wide and thinly distributed band). - ... the 300K base is 177K after tax. - ... the 500K equity is ~250K after tax. Financial independence assuming the stock doesn't massively appreciate by the time you see liquidity is 5-10 years away. I mean this is good do not misunderstand me. There's a big difference between making 800K gross where 62.5% is illiquid and 800K net you can spend any time. [edit] This isn't much different than getting a staff+ role at a MAANG, which includes liquidity, but of course upside depends in your view of the relative stock performance in the coming years. Also, this is well above median, we're probably talking top 5-10% of talent.
    - j0hnyl 3y ago
      You don't think there's a market for this so called illiquid openai stock?
      - arcticbull 3y ago
        Potentially, of course, depending on a ton of factors. Stock agreements generally forbid transfers to third parties outside of like, death and divorce. Also, they're probably RSUs at this point which these secondary market companies don't like because unlike options, they can't be exercised at the holder's discretion, or shares, which the employee owns outright, they don't vest until all conditions are met (which often means until liquidity event). If the conditions aren't met within 7 years the RSUs evaporate even if the company continues to do well. So yeah you may be able to get a no-recourse loan or a forward sale, on bad terms, for the stock/cash to exercise the options. For RSUs you're either going to get even worse terms or politely told to come back once they vest. Let me know if that's not the case though.
317070 3y ago
... because we have been working to this moment for often 10+ years. People that were working on this stuff for a long time were not in it for money. It used to be a more artsy/philosophical field, and the money people moved on a long time ago for Enterprise edition Java or something. On top of that, quitting now would feel like quitting a marathon during the final victory lap. If it turns out that there is still a significant gap between here and the end goal of AI research (which is different for different people), many people will retire. But lately, it has been feeling like we're on a final stretch.
- tarruda 3y ago
  > People that were working on this stuff for a long time were not in it for money. It seems like 90% of OpenAI staff was going to join Sam Altman at Microsoft if the didn't return. Can you elaborate on that?
maccard 3y ago
There are people out there who enjoy working on difficult problems and want to keep working on them. I can't speak for 20 years from now, but if I had retire-now money,I would probably take a job with a small games company. Strangely enough, that's what I do now anyway.
- bob1029 3y ago
  > I would probably take a job with a small games company This is the direction I am headed in. Once my boring SaaS/banking app money pile gets big enough, I'd like to get (back) into building new gaming experiences.
  - maccard 3y ago
    I've taken a slightly different approach, I'm just (planning on) working on the gaming experiences for my entire career, and not waiting for the "cash out to do what I love" moment.
UrineSqueegee 3y ago
I don't think I've ever heard ofthis being a thing lol Why doesn't Jeff or Elon just stop working? People that make that much money don't work for the money.
- qayxc 3y ago
  Wait? Bezos works? I mean, apparently he works out a lot, but he's not CEO anymore. His main worries these days seem to revolve around his ridiculously large mega-yacht having to dock in container harbours due to its size and such...
  - jiggawatts 3y ago
    He's apparently working quite hard to get Blue Origin back on track: https://youtu.be/DcWqzZ3I2cY https://youtu.be/DcWqzZ3I2cY
- ffgjgf1 3y ago
  > Why doesn't Jeff or Elon They are extreme outliers, not really comparable to the general population.
m463 3y ago
lol. Do you know how much a "middle class" house costs in the bay area where these folks work? it is sort of crazy.
mirekrusin 3y ago
It's free market - if you think they're doing it wrong, you can win by doing what you think will work better.
adhesive_wombat 3y ago
Allegedly this is a problem Nvidia has encountered. Their share price increase means they have a lot of staff who are now rich through share ownership and who don't really need to put in the effort any more. https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/gpus/wealthy-nvidia-employees-are-taking-it-easy-in-semi-retirement-mode-even-middle-managers-make-dollar1-million-a-year-or-more-report https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/gpus/wealthy-nvid... It's not quite the same as OpenAI, but as soon as those engineers realise they're not having fun at work anymore, there's a risk they'll just leave or coast. For now they're probably riding high at the place to be, doing the "best" AI work there is. It could stay like that for a long time, but it probably won't last forever.
arthur_sav 3y ago
> why continue to do extremely difficult work? For the same reason rich CEOs still go to work. They find pride in their work and it's a status symbol. Imagine being part of the company that solved AGI.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Depending on the outcome that may cause you to walk proud or to go into hiding.
hutzlibu 3y ago
"If you've got enough money that you can't spend it in a lifetime" Some people are modest, some people want space rockets.
pipes 3y ago
For status :)
khazhoux 3y ago
Everyone here saying “smart people enjoy interesting work.” And that’s fine. But let’s be honest, too. You dream about that first million. By the time you hit it, you want two…
raybb 3y ago
By this logic we'd be running out of CEOs very fast.
phreeza 3y ago
This is making headlines recently but it's really not that outlandish of a pay level in tech in general (e.g. L7+ at Google make this kind of money, and it probably requires similar amounts of experience to reach this level), and seems to be working fine elsewhere.

rapsey 3y ago

Most of these engineers are motivated by accomplishment. I very much doubt any of them would describe their work as soul draining.

tmikaeld 3y ago
I don't know, if I was financially independent, I'd do work that can be open sourced and free - get proper recognition - rather than giving it away to a corporation.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  You're not exactly giving it away at 800K TC are you? :)
- rapsey 3y ago
  That work would be far removed from the industry forefront. With none of the resources and team with you. It takes millions to develop, train and run these AI models. Your plan sounds dreadfully lonely to me.
  - idiliv 3y ago
    They could join Mistral AI, which has published weights for at least some of its models. Another option is Meta AI, which has published weights for Llama and Llama 2.
  - smallerfish 3y ago
    > dreadfully lonely On your deathbed you are likely not going to look back favorably at all the years you put in for bigcorp advancing the industry. Even if you do have a few white papers published, so what? Effectively nobody will remember them in 10 years anyway. Trying to find meaning by working for others doesn't pan out for most people. Bank the cash, get out when you can.
    - hhh 3y ago
      Sounds nihilistic, no thanks
      - smallerfish 3y ago
        Exactly the opposite
    - rapsey 3y ago
      On my death bed I will only care about my kids and family. There is however hopefully a long time till I get there and during that time I would prefer to work on something awesome with good people. As we live in a capitalist system that is generally found in companies.

wetpaws 3y ago

800k will be around 400k post tax. Nowhere near a life changing sum in bay area.

literalAardvark 3y ago

Well, first off is not even hard to spend 800k Second, many smart people like to work.

tmikaeld 3y ago
> Well, first off is not even hard to spend 800k If you're buying a house, sure, but that's just the 1st year. > ..many smart people like to work. I do too, but life outside of work, being financially independent - that's tempting.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  You're not going to net anywhere close to 800K. As the article notes, they're talking 300K base + 500K equity (which is illiquid) at the 'highest end.' (In reality the highest end is likely quite a bit higher, but with a wide and thinly distributed band). - ... the 300K base is 177K after tax. - ... the 500K equity is ~250K after tax. Financial independence assuming the stock doesn't massively appreciate by the time you see liquidity is 5-10 years away. I mean this is good do not misunderstand me. There's a big difference between making 800K gross where 62.5% is illiquid and 800K net you can spend any time. [edit] This isn't much different than getting a staff+ role at a MAANG, which includes liquidity, but of course upside depends in your view of the relative stock performance in the coming years. Also, this is well above median, we're probably talking top 5-10% of talent.
  - j0hnyl 3y ago
    You don't think there's a market for this so called illiquid openai stock?
    - arcticbull 3y ago
      Potentially, of course, depending on a ton of factors. Stock agreements generally forbid transfers to third parties outside of like, death and divorce. Also, they're probably RSUs at this point which these secondary market companies don't like because unlike options, they can't be exercised at the holder's discretion, or shares, which the employee owns outright, they don't vest until all conditions are met (which often means until liquidity event). If the conditions aren't met within 7 years the RSUs evaporate even if the company continues to do well. So yeah you may be able to get a no-recourse loan or a forward sale, on bad terms, for the stock/cash to exercise the options. For RSUs you're either going to get even worse terms or politely told to come back once they vest. Let me know if that's not the case though.

317070 3y ago

... because we have been working to this moment for often 10+ years. People that were working on this stuff for a long time were not in it for money. It used to be a more artsy/philosophical field, and the money people moved on a long time ago for Enterprise edition Java or something. On top of that, quitting now would feel like quitting a marathon during the final victory lap. If it turns out that there is still a significant gap between here and the end goal of AI research (which is different for different people), many people will retire. But lately, it has been feeling like we're on a final stretch.

tarruda 3y ago
> People that were working on this stuff for a long time were not in it for money. It seems like 90% of OpenAI staff was going to join Sam Altman at Microsoft if the didn't return. Can you elaborate on that?

maccard 3y ago

There are people out there who enjoy working on difficult problems and want to keep working on them. I can't speak for 20 years from now, but if I had retire-now money,I would probably take a job with a small games company. Strangely enough, that's what I do now anyway.

bob1029 3y ago
> I would probably take a job with a small games company This is the direction I am headed in. Once my boring SaaS/banking app money pile gets big enough, I'd like to get (back) into building new gaming experiences.
- maccard 3y ago
  I've taken a slightly different approach, I'm just (planning on) working on the gaming experiences for my entire career, and not waiting for the "cash out to do what I love" moment.

UrineSqueegee 3y ago

I don't think I've ever heard ofthis being a thing lol Why doesn't Jeff or Elon just stop working? People that make that much money don't work for the money.

qayxc 3y ago
Wait? Bezos works? I mean, apparently he works out a lot, but he's not CEO anymore. His main worries these days seem to revolve around his ridiculously large mega-yacht having to dock in container harbours due to its size and such...
- jiggawatts 3y ago
  He's apparently working quite hard to get Blue Origin back on track: https://youtu.be/DcWqzZ3I2cY https://youtu.be/DcWqzZ3I2cY
ffgjgf1 3y ago
> Why doesn't Jeff or Elon They are extreme outliers, not really comparable to the general population.

m463 3y ago

lol. Do you know how much a "middle class" house costs in the bay area where these folks work? it is sort of crazy.

mirekrusin 3y ago

It's free market - if you think they're doing it wrong, you can win by doing what you think will work better.

adhesive_wombat 3y ago

Allegedly this is a problem Nvidia has encountered. Their share price increase means they have a lot of staff who are now rich through share ownership and who don't really need to put in the effort any more. https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/gpus/wealthy-nvidia-employees-are-taking-it-easy-in-semi-retirement-mode-even-middle-managers-make-dollar1-million-a-year-or-more-report https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/gpus/wealthy-nvid... It's not quite the same as OpenAI, but as soon as those engineers realise they're not having fun at work anymore, there's a risk they'll just leave or coast. For now they're probably riding high at the place to be, doing the "best" AI work there is. It could stay like that for a long time, but it probably won't last forever.

arthur_sav 3y ago

> why continue to do extremely difficult work? For the same reason rich CEOs still go to work. They find pride in their work and it's a status symbol. Imagine being part of the company that solved AGI.

jacquesm 3y ago
Depending on the outcome that may cause you to walk proud or to go into hiding.

hutzlibu 3y ago

"If you've got enough money that you can't spend it in a lifetime" Some people are modest, some people want space rockets.

pipes 3y ago

For status :)

khazhoux 3y ago

Everyone here saying “smart people enjoy interesting work.” And that’s fine. But let’s be honest, too. You dream about that first million. By the time you hit it, you want two…

raybb 3y ago

By this logic we'd be running out of CEOs very fast.

phreeza 3y ago

This is making headlines recently but it's really not that outlandish of a pay level in tech in general (e.g. L7+ at Google make this kind of money, and it probably requires similar amounts of experience to reach this level), and seems to be working fine elsewhere.