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I feel like you missed the part where the official Hamas spokesman called for permanent war.

ignoramous 3y ago
You miss the part where Hamas was ready to step aside, as recently as 2021, if it meant a political agreement could be reached over the establishment of the Palestinian state: https://www.972mag.com/hamas-fatah-elections-israel-arrogance/ https://www.972mag.com/hamas-fatah-elections-israel-arroganc... Anyhow, after Hamas is gone like we are promised, let's see what new excuses crop up (like, 'all Pal civilians are Nazis' is already gathering some steam) to continue the subjugation of the Palestinians.
- reissbaker 3y ago
  My statement is from 2023 and is the current state of affairs. Your source from 2021 does not include: 1. An actual statement 2. That was ever enacted FYI, what you are referring to is actually a proposal from Fatah to hold elections in 2021, and a promise from Hamas not to run. Hamas backed out of the agreement and ended up submitting candidates to run, despite briefly claiming they wouldn't, and according to Marwan Barghouti and Mohammad Dahlan [1], and even Hamas themselves [2], Abbas then canceled the elections out of fear his party would lose. Your article's claim that it was due to "heavy pressure" from the United States and Israel is unsourced; and regardless, long before the time of the cancellation, Hamas was running and any pretense that they would step aside was gone. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_e... 2: https://web.archive.org/web/20210430012358/https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-slams-abbass-decision-to-delay-palestinian-vote-as-a-coup/ https://web.archive.org/web/20210430012358/https://www.times...
  - ignoramous 3y ago
    > My statement is from 2023... GP started off with something from 2004! Glad we are making progress with timelines here, if nothing else. Speaking of 2023 statements, the ruling party in Israel democratically elected for 2 decades now, have made it abundantly clear that they'll continue to thwart any attempts at 2SS (https://archive.is/34Sg0 https://archive.is/34Sg0) because 'security of the only democracy in the Middle East is at stake'. Apartheid? Yes, for security. Siege? Aiwa, security. Bombing Syria and Iran? Also, security. I'd like to smoke what they are in Knesset to be this drunk on conflict and war. And for the majority to continue to vote them in, because 'security', is telling. The result is, Kahanists are now elected ministers; but God forbid Pals elect 'terrorists'... > Hamas backed out of the agreement and ended up submitting candidates to run I don't see a single mention of Hamas in the 2021 roster: https://www.elections.ps/tabid/1163/language/ar-PS/Default.aspx https://www.elections.ps/tabid/1163/language/ar-PS/Default.a... The Wikipedia page you linked to merely points out a former Hamas leader was running under a new party. > Your article's claim that it was due to "heavy pressure" from the United States and Israel is unsourced Abu Mazen is a puppet. No reason to believe he cancelled the elections despite ALL other factions (some 25+) wanting one. He most certainly can't do so without the support of whoever funds his little fiefdom. It is a forgone conclusion, as people say. > Hamas was running and any pretense that they would step aside was gone. I mean, you state that there hasn't been an actual statement (see below) but also claim it is all a ruse all in the space of 3 paragraphs... The full minutes of the talks were published in an official Emirati document. In essence, the message of the Hamas leadership was clear: "If you in Fatah are convinced that you can get a state from Israel along the 1967 lines through negotiations, go for it. We will not interfere."
    - reissbaker 3y ago
      That is not a statement from Hamas, it is the author editorializing minutes from a meeting. The Wikipedia article that I linked shows the actual list of candidates and parties, which include Hamas, as well as sources for them and opinion polls showing Hamas was likely going to win the election. These are just the facts. Feel free to look at the official candidate lists and opinion polls if you disagree. Hamas was running and the opinion piece you posted is incorrect — they were not going to sit out the election. Here is the direct quote from Wikipedia, since you're claiming it doesn't say Hamas was running: The March 31 midnight deadline for submissions of electoral lists saw 36 lists officially presented,[69] including: Fatah, led by Mahmoud Aloul[70] Freedom, headed by Nasser al-Qudwa and Fadwa Barghouti, the wife of Marwan Barghouti[71] Hamas (running as "Jerusalem is Our Promise"), led by Khalil al-Hayya[70] ... I am not sure why you keep arguing unsourced claims — to the point of claiming that Abbas did not cancel elections, when every source points out that he did, and Hamas themselves say he did and called it a coup by Fatah. Posting random quotes from Netanyahu that do not reference the 2021 election does not back up your claim that Hamas was willing to sit out the election. I don't like Netanyahu either, but that doesn't mean that somehow Hamas wasn't trying to stay in power.
      - ignoramous 3y ago
        Hamas (running as "Jerusalem is Our Promise"), led by Khalil al-Hayya[70] Hamas was in the running in 2021 via proxy (may be because the Western governments labelled it a terrorist group?), driven by their political aspirations as opposed to their military ones: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20210324-hamas-is-building-international-links-to-guarantee-acceptance-of-the-election-results/ https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20210324-hamas-is-building... > I am not sure why you keep arguing unsourced claims — to the point of claiming that Abbas did not cancel elections I never claim anything of the sort. Abu Mazen did cancel the elections. > opinion polls showing Hamas was likely going to win the election As before, actual Kahanists winning elections is a-okay... but Hamas or its proxies winning democratically scare the hell because... 'security'? The 972mag article specifically calls out that the cancellation of the elections by Abu Mazen as the catalyst for al-Qassam, Hamas' armed wing, to (perhaps foolishly) take matter into their own hands. > That is not a quote from Hamas, it What about the direct quotes by Likudniks calling for ethnic cleansing (https://twitter.com/MairavZ/status/1739364199367618871 https://twitter.com/MairavZ/status/1739364199367618871) or more repression? Why do direct quotes from Hamas matter when an official Emirati document points out Hamas were okay with PA leading a political solution towards 2SS (and it is PA that has nothing to show for it 5 years since then). Just so it is clear, I think Hamas are better relegated to the dustbins of history. They hinder more than they help.

You miss the part where Hamas was ready to step aside, as recently as 2021, if it meant a political agreement could be reached over the establishment of the Palestinian state: https://www.972mag.com/hamas-fatah-elections-israel-arrogance/ https://www.972mag.com/hamas-fatah-elections-israel-arroganc... Anyhow, after Hamas is gone like we are promised, let's see what new excuses crop up (like, 'all Pal civilians are Nazis' is already gathering some steam) to continue the subjugation of the Palestinians.

reissbaker 3y ago
My statement is from 2023 and is the current state of affairs. Your source from 2021 does not include: 1. An actual statement 2. That was ever enacted FYI, what you are referring to is actually a proposal from Fatah to hold elections in 2021, and a promise from Hamas not to run. Hamas backed out of the agreement and ended up submitting candidates to run, despite briefly claiming they wouldn't, and according to Marwan Barghouti and Mohammad Dahlan [1], and even Hamas themselves [2], Abbas then canceled the elections out of fear his party would lose. Your article's claim that it was due to "heavy pressure" from the United States and Israel is unsourced; and regardless, long before the time of the cancellation, Hamas was running and any pretense that they would step aside was gone. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_e... 2: https://web.archive.org/web/20210430012358/https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-slams-abbass-decision-to-delay-palestinian-vote-as-a-coup/ https://web.archive.org/web/20210430012358/https://www.times...
- ignoramous 3y ago
  > My statement is from 2023... GP started off with something from 2004! Glad we are making progress with timelines here, if nothing else. Speaking of 2023 statements, the ruling party in Israel democratically elected for 2 decades now, have made it abundantly clear that they'll continue to thwart any attempts at 2SS (https://archive.is/34Sg0 https://archive.is/34Sg0) because 'security of the only democracy in the Middle East is at stake'. Apartheid? Yes, for security. Siege? Aiwa, security. Bombing Syria and Iran? Also, security. I'd like to smoke what they are in Knesset to be this drunk on conflict and war. And for the majority to continue to vote them in, because 'security', is telling. The result is, Kahanists are now elected ministers; but God forbid Pals elect 'terrorists'... > Hamas backed out of the agreement and ended up submitting candidates to run I don't see a single mention of Hamas in the 2021 roster: https://www.elections.ps/tabid/1163/language/ar-PS/Default.aspx https://www.elections.ps/tabid/1163/language/ar-PS/Default.a... The Wikipedia page you linked to merely points out a former Hamas leader was running under a new party. > Your article's claim that it was due to "heavy pressure" from the United States and Israel is unsourced Abu Mazen is a puppet. No reason to believe he cancelled the elections despite ALL other factions (some 25+) wanting one. He most certainly can't do so without the support of whoever funds his little fiefdom. It is a forgone conclusion, as people say. > Hamas was running and any pretense that they would step aside was gone. I mean, you state that there hasn't been an actual statement (see below) but also claim it is all a ruse all in the space of 3 paragraphs... The full minutes of the talks were published in an official Emirati document. In essence, the message of the Hamas leadership was clear: "If you in Fatah are convinced that you can get a state from Israel along the 1967 lines through negotiations, go for it. We will not interfere."
  - reissbaker 3y ago
    That is not a statement from Hamas, it is the author editorializing minutes from a meeting. The Wikipedia article that I linked shows the actual list of candidates and parties, which include Hamas, as well as sources for them and opinion polls showing Hamas was likely going to win the election. These are just the facts. Feel free to look at the official candidate lists and opinion polls if you disagree. Hamas was running and the opinion piece you posted is incorrect — they were not going to sit out the election. Here is the direct quote from Wikipedia, since you're claiming it doesn't say Hamas was running: The March 31 midnight deadline for submissions of electoral lists saw 36 lists officially presented,[69] including: Fatah, led by Mahmoud Aloul[70] Freedom, headed by Nasser al-Qudwa and Fadwa Barghouti, the wife of Marwan Barghouti[71] Hamas (running as "Jerusalem is Our Promise"), led by Khalil al-Hayya[70] ... I am not sure why you keep arguing unsourced claims — to the point of claiming that Abbas did not cancel elections, when every source points out that he did, and Hamas themselves say he did and called it a coup by Fatah. Posting random quotes from Netanyahu that do not reference the 2021 election does not back up your claim that Hamas was willing to sit out the election. I don't like Netanyahu either, but that doesn't mean that somehow Hamas wasn't trying to stay in power.
    - ignoramous 3y ago
      Hamas (running as "Jerusalem is Our Promise"), led by Khalil al-Hayya[70] Hamas was in the running in 2021 via proxy (may be because the Western governments labelled it a terrorist group?), driven by their political aspirations as opposed to their military ones: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20210324-hamas-is-building-international-links-to-guarantee-acceptance-of-the-election-results/ https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20210324-hamas-is-building... > I am not sure why you keep arguing unsourced claims — to the point of claiming that Abbas did not cancel elections I never claim anything of the sort. Abu Mazen did cancel the elections. > opinion polls showing Hamas was likely going to win the election As before, actual Kahanists winning elections is a-okay... but Hamas or its proxies winning democratically scare the hell because... 'security'? The 972mag article specifically calls out that the cancellation of the elections by Abu Mazen as the catalyst for al-Qassam, Hamas' armed wing, to (perhaps foolishly) take matter into their own hands. > That is not a quote from Hamas, it What about the direct quotes by Likudniks calling for ethnic cleansing (https://twitter.com/MairavZ/status/1739364199367618871 https://twitter.com/MairavZ/status/1739364199367618871) or more repression? Why do direct quotes from Hamas matter when an official Emirati document points out Hamas were okay with PA leading a political solution towards 2SS (and it is PA that has nothing to show for it 5 years since then). Just so it is clear, I think Hamas are better relegated to the dustbins of history. They hinder more than they help.