3 ms·

because they say “not a good culture fit” and you can’t prove anything

ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
Yup. Also, the entire industry pretty much actively supports and accommodates ageism. It's not like a few "rogue actors." Everyone is in on it, and it starts from the top. Also, I found out that some younger folks really hate us. A number of folks used the interview process to try humiliating me, and taking out their personal animus. After a few of these, I decided "Bugger this for a lark," and just accepted that I shouldn't bother looking, anymore. But I think people are being hoist by their own petard. I'm seeing folks in their forties, that never had any issue, finding work, hitting the wall. These were people that did it to others, when they were working. We can't become other races, and we [usually] can't become other genders, but we all become old, so each of us will have a turn at the wheel.
- novok 3y ago
  Have you tried the indie software thing like this guy? How has that been going? I feel like I have enough saved now that even if I can't get corporate work anymore due to age (which I kind of doubt due to the age of people I've worked with in FANG, and the fact I'm already pretty much a manager of managers, which tends to run older) that I would be pretty happy doing the indie thing too.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
    I'm working on apps for nonprofits that can't afford people of my caliber. I don't charge for my work, but take it every bit as seriously, as if I were. It's actually part of the satisfaction that I get from the work. Keeps me busy and up-to-date, and is extremely gratifying. I'm getting ready to release an app that is a top-to-bottom system, involving a couple of servers that I wrote, along with a fairly robust native iOS frontend. Works a charm. I've enjoyed it. Of course, I have to keep my scope humble, but I've always been able to punch above my weight, so it's working out.
    - groby_b 3y ago
      FWIW: For your non-profit work, I'd recommend charging full price as donation if your tax jurisdiction allows this.
      - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
        Sadly, it does not. We're not allowed to declare "sweat equity." If I was able to declare it, I'd never pay a dime in taxes. I have heard that Steve Kamen, who wrote the "I Love New York" jingle, gave full rights to the state, and never has to pay state taxes. I haven't found anything that corroborates this, but it could very well be true. The work I do, is for a demographic that tends to be ignored. I doubt there's any tax breaks, headed my way.
        jahewson 3y ago
        You might be able to donate the copyright. That’s worth basically as much as the labor.
    - fragmede 3y ago
      Do you invoice them anyway and zero out your fee, or just do the work for free and don't invoice them?
      - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
        I don't invoice them. The outfit is really small. I am an officer of the 501(c)(3), though. I've found that most non-tech folks don't have any idea how much it costs to have real talent working for them (or even crap talent). I don't feel like arguing about it. I can't declare it, so it's not worth the agita.
        FireBeyond 3y ago
        I had an org in NYC offer me a Director of Product role ... for $90K.
- mutex_man 3y ago
  We just hired a guy out of retirement a few years ago. Retired after 30 years of C dev but wanted to keep busy in the small town we're based in. He's beloved by all of the software devs and the cyber team (we're basically two companies in one). The first week he was asking questions about how git worked. Then like a week later he was explaining why massive amounts of python code we wrote for running simulations was inefficient and how it could be fixed.
  - ta988 3y ago
    Same thing here we hired a retired domain specialist, sure he had issues with all current dev environments, tooling etc. But that's still a really clear net positive. There is no way we could have built this without the decades of knowledge he has.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  I have this cynical recurring fantasy that when the Unix epoch rolls over and every legacy system is broken, they’re not going to have anyone left in the workforce who knows the difference between the stack and the heap, and who can debug through disassembly when the binary has no symbols; so they’ll hire us graybeards out of retirement to save the day. Then I wake up and admit that what’s more likely to happen is the 25 yr old Directors of Engineering would rather rewrite all the software in JavaScript rather than admit they need us.
ponector 3y ago
Or: "Thank you for your time, we decided to continue with another candidate." And half of the companies simply ghosting unwanted candidates with no response after the interview.

Yup. Also, the entire industry pretty much actively supports and accommodates ageism. It's not like a few "rogue actors." Everyone is in on it, and it starts from the top. Also, I found out that some younger folks really hate us. A number of folks used the interview process to try humiliating me, and taking out their personal animus. After a few of these, I decided "Bugger this for a lark," and just accepted that I shouldn't bother looking, anymore. But I think people are being hoist by their own petard. I'm seeing folks in their forties, that never had any issue, finding work, hitting the wall. These were people that did it to others, when they were working. We can't become other races, and we [usually] can't become other genders, but we all become old, so each of us will have a turn at the wheel.

novok 3y ago
Have you tried the indie software thing like this guy? How has that been going? I feel like I have enough saved now that even if I can't get corporate work anymore due to age (which I kind of doubt due to the age of people I've worked with in FANG, and the fact I'm already pretty much a manager of managers, which tends to run older) that I would be pretty happy doing the indie thing too.
- ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
  I'm working on apps for nonprofits that can't afford people of my caliber. I don't charge for my work, but take it every bit as seriously, as if I were. It's actually part of the satisfaction that I get from the work. Keeps me busy and up-to-date, and is extremely gratifying. I'm getting ready to release an app that is a top-to-bottom system, involving a couple of servers that I wrote, along with a fairly robust native iOS frontend. Works a charm. I've enjoyed it. Of course, I have to keep my scope humble, but I've always been able to punch above my weight, so it's working out.
  - groby_b 3y ago
    FWIW: For your non-profit work, I'd recommend charging full price as donation if your tax jurisdiction allows this.
    - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
      Sadly, it does not. We're not allowed to declare "sweat equity." If I was able to declare it, I'd never pay a dime in taxes. I have heard that Steve Kamen, who wrote the "I Love New York" jingle, gave full rights to the state, and never has to pay state taxes. I haven't found anything that corroborates this, but it could very well be true. The work I do, is for a demographic that tends to be ignored. I doubt there's any tax breaks, headed my way.
      - jahewson 3y ago
        You might be able to donate the copyright. That’s worth basically as much as the labor.
  - fragmede 3y ago
    Do you invoice them anyway and zero out your fee, or just do the work for free and don't invoice them?
    - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
      I don't invoice them. The outfit is really small. I am an officer of the 501(c)(3), though. I've found that most non-tech folks don't have any idea how much it costs to have real talent working for them (or even crap talent). I don't feel like arguing about it. I can't declare it, so it's not worth the agita.
      - FireBeyond 3y ago
        I had an org in NYC offer me a Director of Product role ... for $90K.
mutex_man 3y ago
We just hired a guy out of retirement a few years ago. Retired after 30 years of C dev but wanted to keep busy in the small town we're based in. He's beloved by all of the software devs and the cyber team (we're basically two companies in one). The first week he was asking questions about how git worked. Then like a week later he was explaining why massive amounts of python code we wrote for running simulations was inefficient and how it could be fixed.
- ta988 3y ago
  Same thing here we hired a retired domain specialist, sure he had issues with all current dev environments, tooling etc. But that's still a really clear net positive. There is no way we could have built this without the decades of knowledge he has.
ryandrake 3y ago
I have this cynical recurring fantasy that when the Unix epoch rolls over and every legacy system is broken, they’re not going to have anyone left in the workforce who knows the difference between the stack and the heap, and who can debug through disassembly when the binary has no symbols; so they’ll hire us graybeards out of retirement to save the day. Then I wake up and admit that what’s more likely to happen is the 25 yr old Directors of Engineering would rather rewrite all the software in JavaScript rather than admit they need us.

ponector 3y ago

Or: "Thank you for your time, we decided to continue with another candidate." And half of the companies simply ghosting unwanted candidates with no response after the interview.