3 ms·

It's not making it fun. It's making them read at all. Go into a classroom of 8-10th grades and have your fucking mind blown. Both comments yours and the guy who

It's not making it fun. It's making them read at all. Go into a classroom of 8-10th grades and have your fucking mind blown. Both comments yours and the guy who says that they don't know the source material anymore are just so unbelievable pretentious and condescending it hurts.

AlbertCory 3y ago
Teaching middle schoolers is just about the worst job in the world. But at least it pays poorly /s
- eszed 3y ago
  On the contrary, it's one of the best jobs in the world. Kids that age are just old enough to comprehend complex ideas, without (yet) having spent enough time in the educational system to have all of their curiosity and creativity beaten out of them. The best trick is to pitch whatever you want them to do as somehow slightly subversive, and they'll follow you anywhere. On the other hand, yeah: teaching has been made into one of the worst careers (at least for educated people) there is, which is why I'm not doing it anymore.
  - AlbertCory 3y ago
    it's probably that some people don't think it's the worst job in the world that it continues to pay so little. for me, it would be. YMMV.
    - eszed 3y ago
      That's fair. Teaching provides immense non-monetary rewards for people who have the temperament and ability to achieve them. (It also provides non-monetary rewards for people with toxic and authoritarian personality traits, but that's kind of a separate issue.) The educational system continues to run (to the extent that it continues to run) because it takes (economic) advantage of people's idealism. Education isn't the only sector that does that. Medicine has become that, as well. OSS would be a tech-related example. Some years ago I read a piece, only partly tongue in cheek, by an economist who posited that rates of pay are inversely correlated with the good any particular job does for humanity. I see that observation regularly confirmed.
pge 3y ago
I get where you are coming from (and take no offense). If I understand your intent correctly, you are right that I should be more generous to teachers. In the context of larger educational challenges (and a recovery from the pandemic), I did not mean to suggest that teachers’ intimate familiarity with Shakespeare should be a high priority in our schools, merely that in a perfect world (without other challenges), students would learn Shakespeare better (which I think would be a benefit) from teachers that know the material. Sadly, our educational system has much deeper challenges than that, and I didn’t mean to suggest otherwise. The conversation was about Shakespeare specifically and how his works are taught, not the broader state of education.
- tgv 3y ago
  OTOH, English teachers once did know their Shakespeare. And Goethe, and Moliere. I had a colleague who could recite some Shakespeare, I even can remember some Heine (even though I hated it), and my former boss could recite the opening of the Odyssey, in Greek. All taught in secondary school. And in these same formative years, my daughter is taught dick jokes. It doesn't require much imagination to see what that does to education. It certainly downgrades the teachers. Too much emphasis has been placed on knowledge being useful, without actually knowing what comprises useful knowledge, and fun in the classroom, in the unproven expectation to improve performance, while at the same time "broadening" the curriculum and lowering the standards, so more children can participate.

AlbertCory 3y ago

Teaching middle schoolers is just about the worst job in the world. But at least it pays poorly /s

eszed 3y ago
On the contrary, it's one of the best jobs in the world. Kids that age are just old enough to comprehend complex ideas, without (yet) having spent enough time in the educational system to have all of their curiosity and creativity beaten out of them. The best trick is to pitch whatever you want them to do as somehow slightly subversive, and they'll follow you anywhere. On the other hand, yeah: teaching has been made into one of the worst careers (at least for educated people) there is, which is why I'm not doing it anymore.
- AlbertCory 3y ago
  it's probably that some people don't think it's the worst job in the world that it continues to pay so little. for me, it would be. YMMV.
  - eszed 3y ago
    That's fair. Teaching provides immense non-monetary rewards for people who have the temperament and ability to achieve them. (It also provides non-monetary rewards for people with toxic and authoritarian personality traits, but that's kind of a separate issue.) The educational system continues to run (to the extent that it continues to run) because it takes (economic) advantage of people's idealism. Education isn't the only sector that does that. Medicine has become that, as well. OSS would be a tech-related example. Some years ago I read a piece, only partly tongue in cheek, by an economist who posited that rates of pay are inversely correlated with the good any particular job does for humanity. I see that observation regularly confirmed.

pge 3y ago

I get where you are coming from (and take no offense). If I understand your intent correctly, you are right that I should be more generous to teachers. In the context of larger educational challenges (and a recovery from the pandemic), I did not mean to suggest that teachers’ intimate familiarity with Shakespeare should be a high priority in our schools, merely that in a perfect world (without other challenges), students would learn Shakespeare better (which I think would be a benefit) from teachers that know the material. Sadly, our educational system has much deeper challenges than that, and I didn’t mean to suggest otherwise. The conversation was about Shakespeare specifically and how his works are taught, not the broader state of education.

tgv 3y ago
OTOH, English teachers once did know their Shakespeare. And Goethe, and Moliere. I had a colleague who could recite some Shakespeare, I even can remember some Heine (even though I hated it), and my former boss could recite the opening of the Odyssey, in Greek. All taught in secondary school. And in these same formative years, my daughter is taught dick jokes. It doesn't require much imagination to see what that does to education. It certainly downgrades the teachers. Too much emphasis has been placed on knowledge being useful, without actually knowing what comprises useful knowledge, and fun in the classroom, in the unproven expectation to improve performance, while at the same time "broadening" the curriculum and lowering the standards, so more children can participate.