4 ms·

How is that not actionable discrimination?

vasco 3y ago
Something being illegal doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
serial_dev 3y ago
I assume it's not that easy to prove, so most people don't take legal action. Personally, I don't take legal action even if I think I can win the case, because it's just too much time and effort, and I don't want my life to focus on said legal procedure for the next n months. I assume other people also think they need to choose their battles.
dullcrisp 3y ago
I imagine it’s a lot harder to sue an industry for not hiring you than it is to sue your employer for firing you.
plagiarist 3y ago
If they're in the US, only provable discrimination is actionable, and you'd have to hire a lawyer.
micromacrofoot 3y ago
because they say “not a good culture fit” and you can’t prove anything
- ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
  Yup. Also, the entire industry pretty much actively supports and accommodates ageism. It's not like a few "rogue actors." Everyone is in on it, and it starts from the top. Also, I found out that some younger folks really hate us. A number of folks used the interview process to try humiliating me, and taking out their personal animus. After a few of these, I decided "Bugger this for a lark," and just accepted that I shouldn't bother looking, anymore. But I think people are being hoist by their own petard. I'm seeing folks in their forties, that never had any issue, finding work, hitting the wall. These were people that did it to others, when they were working. We can't become other races, and we [usually] can't become other genders, but we all become old, so each of us will have a turn at the wheel.
  - novok 3y ago
    Have you tried the indie software thing like this guy? How has that been going? I feel like I have enough saved now that even if I can't get corporate work anymore due to age (which I kind of doubt due to the age of people I've worked with in FANG, and the fact I'm already pretty much a manager of managers, which tends to run older) that I would be pretty happy doing the indie thing too.
    - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
      I'm working on apps for nonprofits that can't afford people of my caliber. I don't charge for my work, but take it every bit as seriously, as if I were. It's actually part of the satisfaction that I get from the work. Keeps me busy and up-to-date, and is extremely gratifying. I'm getting ready to release an app that is a top-to-bottom system, involving a couple of servers that I wrote, along with a fairly robust native iOS frontend. Works a charm. I've enjoyed it. Of course, I have to keep my scope humble, but I've always been able to punch above my weight, so it's working out.
      - groby_b 3y ago
        FWIW: For your non-profit work, I'd recommend charging full price as donation if your tax jurisdiction allows this.
        ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
        Sadly, it does not. We're not allowed to declare "sweat equity." If I was able to declare it, I'd never pay a dime in taxes. I have heard that Steve Kamen, who wrote the "I Love New York" jingle, gave full rights to the state, and never has to pay state taxes. I haven't found anything that corroborates this, but it could very well be true. The work I do, is for a demographic that tends to be ignored. I doubt there's any tax breaks, headed my way.
        jahewson 3y ago
- ponector 3y ago
  Or: "Thank you for your time, we decided to continue with another candidate." And half of the companies simply ghosting unwanted candidates with no response after the interview.
faeriechangling 3y ago
I’ve given a hundred people advice on handling discrimination at this point, and the thing I always stress is that it only matters what you can prove, not what happened. Protecting yourself against discrimination doesn’t mean trusting the courts. It means being willing to lie or mislead people into thinking you aren’t in the category of people who gets discriminated against, making yourself too much trouble to fire, and finding open-minded employers. If you’re in a disadvantaged group, you need to pick your battles, and accept that life isn’t fair.
- rrrix1 3y ago
  Pure Wisdom!
ldoughty 3y ago
You do not often get an email to tell you you were not accepted for a position (unless you made it far in the process) Businesses have pushed heavily for at-will employment; this means that businesses don't need to say why people are fired. So they don't have to write down why you were not hired, nor why you were fired. So you have to prove that you were not hired/or fired for being in a protected class. This is extremely difficult short of a recording of the interviewer saying e.g. "so you're pregnant?" => can possibly argue discrimination, but it's still difficult. This kind of stuff works in a panel interviews or bad work environment when you can compel testimony from other workers who would rather risk their job over jail... but doesn't work well in 1:1 or 2:1 situations where one or two people just need to lie to avoid the lawsuit.
- joebob42 3y ago
  Or, not even lie, but just be unaware of the subconscious biases influencing them. Then they can say with a completely straight face that your group had nothing to do with it, even if that isn't true.
stein1946 3y ago
You call it discrimination, they call it employment at will.
numpad0 3y ago
It's not worth trying to force people to work and share income with anyone they deem ugly. It will add cognitive load / dissonance and hurt their performance. Lookism is not okay, this is not about endorsing these kinds of behaviors, but nor it is something that can be instantly nullified by just coming up with the labeling. Maybe isolating cubicle walls, snail mails, audio-only telephones, and non-engineer sales representatives were good things. And possibly VR avatars in the future too. But anyway, the point is, threatening someone who hates you(for any reasons, not limited to their bigotry) to work with you is not the path of least resistance.

Something being illegal doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I assume it's not that easy to prove, so most people don't take legal action. Personally, I don't take legal action even if I think I can win the case, because it's just too much time and effort, and I don't want my life to focus on said legal procedure for the next n months. I assume other people also think they need to choose their battles.

dullcrisp 3y ago

I imagine it’s a lot harder to sue an industry for not hiring you than it is to sue your employer for firing you.

plagiarist 3y ago

If they're in the US, only provable discrimination is actionable, and you'd have to hire a lawyer.

micromacrofoot 3y ago

because they say “not a good culture fit” and you can’t prove anything

ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
Yup. Also, the entire industry pretty much actively supports and accommodates ageism. It's not like a few "rogue actors." Everyone is in on it, and it starts from the top. Also, I found out that some younger folks really hate us. A number of folks used the interview process to try humiliating me, and taking out their personal animus. After a few of these, I decided "Bugger this for a lark," and just accepted that I shouldn't bother looking, anymore. But I think people are being hoist by their own petard. I'm seeing folks in their forties, that never had any issue, finding work, hitting the wall. These were people that did it to others, when they were working. We can't become other races, and we [usually] can't become other genders, but we all become old, so each of us will have a turn at the wheel.
- novok 3y ago
  Have you tried the indie software thing like this guy? How has that been going? I feel like I have enough saved now that even if I can't get corporate work anymore due to age (which I kind of doubt due to the age of people I've worked with in FANG, and the fact I'm already pretty much a manager of managers, which tends to run older) that I would be pretty happy doing the indie thing too.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
    I'm working on apps for nonprofits that can't afford people of my caliber. I don't charge for my work, but take it every bit as seriously, as if I were. It's actually part of the satisfaction that I get from the work. Keeps me busy and up-to-date, and is extremely gratifying. I'm getting ready to release an app that is a top-to-bottom system, involving a couple of servers that I wrote, along with a fairly robust native iOS frontend. Works a charm. I've enjoyed it. Of course, I have to keep my scope humble, but I've always been able to punch above my weight, so it's working out.
    - groby_b 3y ago
      FWIW: For your non-profit work, I'd recommend charging full price as donation if your tax jurisdiction allows this.
      - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
        Sadly, it does not. We're not allowed to declare "sweat equity." If I was able to declare it, I'd never pay a dime in taxes. I have heard that Steve Kamen, who wrote the "I Love New York" jingle, gave full rights to the state, and never has to pay state taxes. I haven't found anything that corroborates this, but it could very well be true. The work I do, is for a demographic that tends to be ignored. I doubt there's any tax breaks, headed my way.
        jahewson 3y ago
ponector 3y ago
Or: "Thank you for your time, we decided to continue with another candidate." And half of the companies simply ghosting unwanted candidates with no response after the interview.

faeriechangling 3y ago

I’ve given a hundred people advice on handling discrimination at this point, and the thing I always stress is that it only matters what you can prove, not what happened. Protecting yourself against discrimination doesn’t mean trusting the courts. It means being willing to lie or mislead people into thinking you aren’t in the category of people who gets discriminated against, making yourself too much trouble to fire, and finding open-minded employers. If you’re in a disadvantaged group, you need to pick your battles, and accept that life isn’t fair.

rrrix1 3y ago
Pure Wisdom!

ldoughty 3y ago

You do not often get an email to tell you you were not accepted for a position (unless you made it far in the process) Businesses have pushed heavily for at-will employment; this means that businesses don't need to say why people are fired. So they don't have to write down why you were not hired, nor why you were fired. So you have to prove that you were not hired/or fired for being in a protected class. This is extremely difficult short of a recording of the interviewer saying e.g. "so you're pregnant?" => can possibly argue discrimination, but it's still difficult. This kind of stuff works in a panel interviews or bad work environment when you can compel testimony from other workers who would rather risk their job over jail... but doesn't work well in 1:1 or 2:1 situations where one or two people just need to lie to avoid the lawsuit.

joebob42 3y ago
Or, not even lie, but just be unaware of the subconscious biases influencing them. Then they can say with a completely straight face that your group had nothing to do with it, even if that isn't true.

stein1946 3y ago

You call it discrimination, they call it employment at will.

numpad0 3y ago

It's not worth trying to force people to work and share income with anyone they deem ugly. It will add cognitive load / dissonance and hurt their performance. Lookism is not okay, this is not about endorsing these kinds of behaviors, but nor it is something that can be instantly nullified by just coming up with the labeling. Maybe isolating cubicle walls, snail mails, audio-only telephones, and non-engineer sales representatives were good things. And possibly VR avatars in the future too. But anyway, the point is, threatening someone who hates you(for any reasons, not limited to their bigotry) to work with you is not the path of least resistance.