10 ms·

This is a beautifully poignant post about life and selling one's time. At 39 I've reached this point where I can verbalise that sentiment whereas before I could

by asim 3y ago

This is a beautifully poignant post about life and selling one's time. At 39 I've reached this point where I can verbalise that sentiment whereas before I could only really feel it. Having to sell one's time to others sucks. Doing things on someone else's schedule sucks. And ultimately as the post ended, having the freedom to spend life the way it should be spent means sacrificing that extra bit of money we might want but don't need. Great post.

gumballindie 3y ago
You have seen the light. Thing is it’s doable. Keep pushing.
ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
That's why I'm not that upset that no one wants to work with an old guy (that's me), and I was forced to retire. I still get to play with software, but on my own time, and on my own schedule. The difference is amazing.
- Exoristos 3y ago
  How is that not actionable discrimination?
  - vasco 3y ago
    Something being illegal doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
  - serial_dev 3y ago
    I assume it's not that easy to prove, so most people don't take legal action. Personally, I don't take legal action even if I think I can win the case, because it's just too much time and effort, and I don't want my life to focus on said legal procedure for the next n months. I assume other people also think they need to choose their battles.
  - dullcrisp 3y ago
    I imagine it’s a lot harder to sue an industry for not hiring you than it is to sue your employer for firing you.
  - plagiarist 3y ago
    If they're in the US, only provable discrimination is actionable, and you'd have to hire a lawyer.
  - micromacrofoot 3y ago
    because they say “not a good culture fit” and you can’t prove anything
    - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
      Yup. Also, the entire industry pretty much actively supports and accommodates ageism. It's not like a few "rogue actors." Everyone is in on it, and it starts from the top. Also, I found out that some younger folks really hate us. A number of folks used the interview process to try humiliating me, and taking out their personal animus. After a few of these, I decided "Bugger this for a lark," and just accepted that I shouldn't bother looking, anymore. But I think people are being hoist by their own petard. I'm seeing folks in their forties, that never had any issue, finding work, hitting the wall. These were people that did it to others, when they were working. We can't become other races, and we [usually] can't become other genders, but we all become old, so each of us will have a turn at the wheel.
      - novok 3y ago
        Have you tried the indie software thing like this guy? How has that been going? I feel like I have enough saved now that even if I can't get corporate work anymore due to age (which I kind of doubt due to the age of people I've worked with in FANG, and the fact I'm already pretty much a manager of managers, which tends to run older) that I would be pretty happy doing the indie thing too.
        ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
        I'm working on apps for nonprofits that can't afford people of my caliber. I don't charge for my work, but take it every bit as seriously, as if I were. It's actually part of the satisfaction that I get from the work. Keeps me busy and up-to-date, and is extremely gratifying. I'm getting ready to release an app that is a top-to-bottom system, involving a couple of servers that I wrote, along with a fairly robust native iOS frontend. Works a charm. I've enjoyed it. Of course, I have to keep my scope humble, but I've always been able to punch above my weight, so it's working out.
  - faeriechangling 3y ago
    I’ve given a hundred people advice on handling discrimination at this point, and the thing I always stress is that it only matters what you can prove, not what happened. Protecting yourself against discrimination doesn’t mean trusting the courts. It means being willing to lie or mislead people into thinking you aren’t in the category of people who gets discriminated against, making yourself too much trouble to fire, and finding open-minded employers. If you’re in a disadvantaged group, you need to pick your battles, and accept that life isn’t fair.
    - rrrix1 3y ago
      Pure Wisdom!
  - ldoughty 3y ago
    You do not often get an email to tell you you were not accepted for a position (unless you made it far in the process) Businesses have pushed heavily for at-will employment; this means that businesses don't need to say why people are fired. So they don't have to write down why you were not hired, nor why you were fired. So you have to prove that you were not hired/or fired for being in a protected class. This is extremely difficult short of a recording of the interviewer saying e.g. "so you're pregnant?" => can possibly argue discrimination, but it's still difficult. This kind of stuff works in a panel interviews or bad work environment when you can compel testimony from other workers who would rather risk their job over jail... but doesn't work well in 1:1 or 2:1 situations where one or two people just need to lie to avoid the lawsuit.
    - joebob42 3y ago
      Or, not even lie, but just be unaware of the subconscious biases influencing them. Then they can say with a completely straight face that your group had nothing to do with it, even if that isn't true.
  - stein1946 3y ago
    You call it discrimination, they call it employment at will.
  - numpad0 3y ago
    It's not worth trying to force people to work and share income with anyone they deem ugly. It will add cognitive load / dissonance and hurt their performance. Lookism is not okay, this is not about endorsing these kinds of behaviors, but nor it is something that can be instantly nullified by just coming up with the labeling. Maybe isolating cubicle walls, snail mails, audio-only telephones, and non-engineer sales representatives were good things. And possibly VR avatars in the future too. But anyway, the point is, threatening someone who hates you(for any reasons, not limited to their bigotry) to work with you is not the path of least resistance.
- magic_hamster 3y ago
  Amazing given you can maintain your standard of living.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
    I had enough saved, to allow myself to do OK. I wasn't planning on retiring for another ten years, but I wasn't really given a choice.
    - j0hnyl 3y ago
      How old are you?
      - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
        I am now 61. I was 55, when I left my last company.
        laurels-marts 3y ago
        Hold on. You couldn't find a job at 55 because you were perceived as too old?
        ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
        Oh, yeah. I hear people in their thirties, complaining about being treated as "old." When the CEO is 26, then it's easy to have a young workforce. In The Days of Yore, the C-suite was generally folks in their fifties, and the youngsters were forced to work with their chronological seniors. The older folks had the money and power, but they needed the creativity and energy of the younger workers. If the workforce is all older folks, you get shipping product that no one wants. If the workforce is all younger folks, you get ... FTX. Look at some of these "full team" photos, for many of these new companies. You won't see a grey hair anywhere, and, if you do, a bit of research usually shows them to be a Principal. I fully admit that it's a world that doesn't want or need people like me. It really pissed me off, at first, but, in the aggregate, it has resulted in the first truly happy work that I've done in decades, so it's all good. That said, some of my former employees are near my age, and were able to find work, but it took each of them, several years, and they didn't have the baggage of being a former manager.
ljm 3y ago
I had a bit of a mental shift after I turned 30, realising I'd spent the best part of a decade building up my career in various ways. I'm still in the typical 9-5 job since I'm way too young to retire (and we don't get paid the crazy money in the UK that software engineers in parts of the US do), but I've been able to settle on what I want and what I don't want so I have the power to walk away. In the simplest terms, I just need to be at a place working on something I give a fuck about, which pushes me to smaller upstarts. This sometimes incurs a bit of a paycut but I see that as a worthwhile hit to take if I don't feel like I'm selling my soul to people I realise I don't want to work for. Just gotta avoid the lifestyle creep so a temporary downsize doesn't contribute to mental distress.
- varispeed 3y ago
  Building up career is a trap. The system is designed to capture everyone as a wage slave and every year there are more barriers put to keep the "pleb" in their lane. The only way to build wealth (independence, freedom) for one's family is through starting a business that you can scale. If you go to work at a company always think how you can use the knowledge gained there to start something of your own. Use salaried work as a paid for education, not a mean for living, otherwise you'll get trapped forever. 30 is a turning point, where most people realise about the situation they are in and look for escape. > In the simplest terms, I just need to be at a place working on something I give a fuck about That would always be one's own business. If you are not in a position to run one, always ask for true equity in the business you want to work in.
  - saagarjha 3y ago
    Definitely not true. If you keep your expenses down and your compensation up (FAANG, etc.) you can easily make enough to retire early.
    - ryandrake 3y ago
      “Just be one of the vanishingly few to 1.work at FAANG + 2.as a L6-or-greater SWE + 3.in the Bay Area” is not a realistic strategy. Yes, if all those miracles come true that lottery winner can retire early, but I don’t think that is a broadly applicable plan.
matheusmoreira 3y ago
My goal in life is to amass enough assets and investments that the monthly return adjusted for inflation equals a good salary that I can live comfortably off of. The ultimate in fuck you money is fuck you monthly cash flow. No doubt it's rent seeking but it's the only rational thing to do in this economic system we all live under.
- jazzdev 3y ago
  Rent seeking implies using laws or market power to profit without providing any value. Depending upon your assets and investments, you may well be providing value to companies and society.

by asim 3y ago

gumballindie 3y ago

You have seen the light. Thing is it’s doable. Keep pushing.

ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago

That's why I'm not that upset that no one wants to work with an old guy (that's me), and I was forced to retire. I still get to play with software, but on my own time, and on my own schedule. The difference is amazing.

Exoristos 3y ago
How is that not actionable discrimination?
- vasco 3y ago
  Something being illegal doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
- serial_dev 3y ago
  I assume it's not that easy to prove, so most people don't take legal action. Personally, I don't take legal action even if I think I can win the case, because it's just too much time and effort, and I don't want my life to focus on said legal procedure for the next n months. I assume other people also think they need to choose their battles.
- dullcrisp 3y ago
  I imagine it’s a lot harder to sue an industry for not hiring you than it is to sue your employer for firing you.
- plagiarist 3y ago
  If they're in the US, only provable discrimination is actionable, and you'd have to hire a lawyer.
- micromacrofoot 3y ago
  because they say “not a good culture fit” and you can’t prove anything
  - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
    Yup. Also, the entire industry pretty much actively supports and accommodates ageism. It's not like a few "rogue actors." Everyone is in on it, and it starts from the top. Also, I found out that some younger folks really hate us. A number of folks used the interview process to try humiliating me, and taking out their personal animus. After a few of these, I decided "Bugger this for a lark," and just accepted that I shouldn't bother looking, anymore. But I think people are being hoist by their own petard. I'm seeing folks in their forties, that never had any issue, finding work, hitting the wall. These were people that did it to others, when they were working. We can't become other races, and we [usually] can't become other genders, but we all become old, so each of us will have a turn at the wheel.
    - novok 3y ago
      Have you tried the indie software thing like this guy? How has that been going? I feel like I have enough saved now that even if I can't get corporate work anymore due to age (which I kind of doubt due to the age of people I've worked with in FANG, and the fact I'm already pretty much a manager of managers, which tends to run older) that I would be pretty happy doing the indie thing too.
      - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
        I'm working on apps for nonprofits that can't afford people of my caliber. I don't charge for my work, but take it every bit as seriously, as if I were. It's actually part of the satisfaction that I get from the work. Keeps me busy and up-to-date, and is extremely gratifying. I'm getting ready to release an app that is a top-to-bottom system, involving a couple of servers that I wrote, along with a fairly robust native iOS frontend. Works a charm. I've enjoyed it. Of course, I have to keep my scope humble, but I've always been able to punch above my weight, so it's working out.
- faeriechangling 3y ago
  I’ve given a hundred people advice on handling discrimination at this point, and the thing I always stress is that it only matters what you can prove, not what happened. Protecting yourself against discrimination doesn’t mean trusting the courts. It means being willing to lie or mislead people into thinking you aren’t in the category of people who gets discriminated against, making yourself too much trouble to fire, and finding open-minded employers. If you’re in a disadvantaged group, you need to pick your battles, and accept that life isn’t fair.
  - rrrix1 3y ago
    Pure Wisdom!
- ldoughty 3y ago
  You do not often get an email to tell you you were not accepted for a position (unless you made it far in the process) Businesses have pushed heavily for at-will employment; this means that businesses don't need to say why people are fired. So they don't have to write down why you were not hired, nor why you were fired. So you have to prove that you were not hired/or fired for being in a protected class. This is extremely difficult short of a recording of the interviewer saying e.g. "so you're pregnant?" => can possibly argue discrimination, but it's still difficult. This kind of stuff works in a panel interviews or bad work environment when you can compel testimony from other workers who would rather risk their job over jail... but doesn't work well in 1:1 or 2:1 situations where one or two people just need to lie to avoid the lawsuit.
  - joebob42 3y ago
    Or, not even lie, but just be unaware of the subconscious biases influencing them. Then they can say with a completely straight face that your group had nothing to do with it, even if that isn't true.
- stein1946 3y ago
  You call it discrimination, they call it employment at will.
- numpad0 3y ago
  It's not worth trying to force people to work and share income with anyone they deem ugly. It will add cognitive load / dissonance and hurt their performance. Lookism is not okay, this is not about endorsing these kinds of behaviors, but nor it is something that can be instantly nullified by just coming up with the labeling. Maybe isolating cubicle walls, snail mails, audio-only telephones, and non-engineer sales representatives were good things. And possibly VR avatars in the future too. But anyway, the point is, threatening someone who hates you(for any reasons, not limited to their bigotry) to work with you is not the path of least resistance.
magic_hamster 3y ago
Amazing given you can maintain your standard of living.
- ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
  I had enough saved, to allow myself to do OK. I wasn't planning on retiring for another ten years, but I wasn't really given a choice.
  - j0hnyl 3y ago
    How old are you?
    - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
      I am now 61. I was 55, when I left my last company.
      - laurels-marts 3y ago
        Hold on. You couldn't find a job at 55 because you were perceived as too old?
        ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
        Oh, yeah. I hear people in their thirties, complaining about being treated as "old." When the CEO is 26, then it's easy to have a young workforce. In The Days of Yore, the C-suite was generally folks in their fifties, and the youngsters were forced to work with their chronological seniors. The older folks had the money and power, but they needed the creativity and energy of the younger workers. If the workforce is all older folks, you get shipping product that no one wants. If the workforce is all younger folks, you get ... FTX. Look at some of these "full team" photos, for many of these new companies. You won't see a grey hair anywhere, and, if you do, a bit of research usually shows them to be a Principal. I fully admit that it's a world that doesn't want or need people like me. It really pissed me off, at first, but, in the aggregate, it has resulted in the first truly happy work that I've done in decades, so it's all good. That said, some of my former employees are near my age, and were able to find work, but it took each of them, several years, and they didn't have the baggage of being a former manager.

ljm 3y ago

I had a bit of a mental shift after I turned 30, realising I'd spent the best part of a decade building up my career in various ways. I'm still in the typical 9-5 job since I'm way too young to retire (and we don't get paid the crazy money in the UK that software engineers in parts of the US do), but I've been able to settle on what I want and what I don't want so I have the power to walk away. In the simplest terms, I just need to be at a place working on something I give a fuck about, which pushes me to smaller upstarts. This sometimes incurs a bit of a paycut but I see that as a worthwhile hit to take if I don't feel like I'm selling my soul to people I realise I don't want to work for. Just gotta avoid the lifestyle creep so a temporary downsize doesn't contribute to mental distress.

varispeed 3y ago
Building up career is a trap. The system is designed to capture everyone as a wage slave and every year there are more barriers put to keep the "pleb" in their lane. The only way to build wealth (independence, freedom) for one's family is through starting a business that you can scale. If you go to work at a company always think how you can use the knowledge gained there to start something of your own. Use salaried work as a paid for education, not a mean for living, otherwise you'll get trapped forever. 30 is a turning point, where most people realise about the situation they are in and look for escape. > In the simplest terms, I just need to be at a place working on something I give a fuck about That would always be one's own business. If you are not in a position to run one, always ask for true equity in the business you want to work in.
- saagarjha 3y ago
  Definitely not true. If you keep your expenses down and your compensation up (FAANG, etc.) you can easily make enough to retire early.
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    “Just be one of the vanishingly few to 1.work at FAANG + 2.as a L6-or-greater SWE + 3.in the Bay Area” is not a realistic strategy. Yes, if all those miracles come true that lottery winner can retire early, but I don’t think that is a broadly applicable plan.

matheusmoreira 3y ago

My goal in life is to amass enough assets and investments that the monthly return adjusted for inflation equals a good salary that I can live comfortably off of. The ultimate in fuck you money is fuck you monthly cash flow. No doubt it's rent seeking but it's the only rational thing to do in this economic system we all live under.

jazzdev 3y ago
Rent seeking implies using laws or market power to profit without providing any value. Depending upon your assets and investments, you may well be providing value to companies and society.