4 ms·

I'm from a country where there is a different version and I hate it because it makes me overthink every time about which one is appropriate to use now with peop

I'm from a country where there is a different version and I hate it because it makes me overthink every time about which one is appropriate to use now with people I don't know. Maybe I should completely ditch it, and use the informal one with everyone new, just with the hopes of building immediate rapport. I must not be the only one to hate it, and surely those people who would mind me using the informal one are not worth my time in the first place. Luckily we don't have gendered pronouns though, so we can avoid that problem altogether. I think in the end best and most scalable language is the one that avoids having any implications in the "you" or "pronouns". We are all humans after all.

NewsyHacker 3y ago
If negotiating the tu/vous distinction takes major mental effort, are you on the spectrum? Difficulty with understanding social cues and (these distinctions are also about creating distance) other people’s space is a typical trait of autism. These linguistic innovations wouldn't spread – and often quickly, within a couple of generations – if the neurotypical masses found them burdensome. I'm in a country with this distinction, too, and I don't like strangers addressing me with the informal just like that. Every sociolinguistic setting is different, but using just the informal might not automatically create rapport but the opposite. Saying people like myself aren't worth your time sounds like sour grapes, and it might rob you of some opportunities.
- mewpmewp2 3y ago
  I had a psychologist diagnose me, and I was almost on the spectrum according to the test (with points), but not quite to give me the diagnosis. Obviously the questionnaires are ambiguous with their questions enough to have so many different ways of interpreting the questions that to me makes many of those questions non-sensical in the first place. But actually, I have been to mental institutions multiple times, and in many cases the evaluators have mentioned "autistic tendencies". In the end - am I on the spectrum? I don't know, but I still would feel like I would benefit from it if I would just try to make a joke and then become warm and call them with the informal and singular "you" in my language. I hope it could show that we are all in this together.
- brnt 3y ago
  In the Netherlands, it is very regional whether or not you use the polite form. In the capital region, it is not used, and use is a signifier you are from the countryside, if your accent wasn't enough. There are courses on how to get rid of your accent (or rather, get one of the capital region), and ceasing the employ of the polite form is featured.
  - NewsyHacker 3y ago
    I’m surprised to read this, inasmuch as when I briefly lived in Rotterdam (if “capital region” comprises it, too) some years ago, my local acquaintances coached me in where to use the formal, and where to use the informal, and the distinction seemed very much alive.
    - brnt 3y ago
      A Rotterdammer using the polite form is the Dutch equivalent of angels flying out of ones bumhole: I've never seen it. Joking aside: theres the school version of pioitesse, and the actual version.
  - tacker2000 3y ago
    Thats funny because in Austria it’s the other way around. People in Vienna are used to being overpolite and will use the formal “Sie” abundantly, whereas on the countryside everyone is always almost “Du”. There is the saying: “Am Land sind alle per Du”.
    - brnt 3y ago
      It isn't difficult to see why. Vienna was an imperial capital, the Netherlands 'capital region' was ruled by (wealthy) capitalists. One group would be focused on courtesy, the other on efficiency, wouldn't they? Naturally, both are ultimately evolved into appearance, not substance (because of courae this difference isnt substantial).
- ffgjgf1 3y ago
  > If negotiating the tu/vous distinction takes major mental effort, are you on the spectrum For me it’s the fact that these days it’s very inconsistent. The “rules” were pretty clear 20-30+ years ago. Now it’s a bit of a mess and there is a lot of overlap. > Saying people like myself aren't worth your time sounds like sour grapes I mean.. you’re somebody who just claimed that a random person is autistic because he doesn’t conform with some social norm you find to be somehow extremely important (specifically) in your environment. So it might not be such a bad heuristic.
  - NewsyHacker 3y ago
    I didn’t claim that the person was autistic, I asked. And I asked because the way he described his difficulty is precisely what can finds in the literature on autism and sociolinguistics. And as you can see, I wasn’t far off the mark. I also specifically said that the rules of my environment might not apply to his.
  - em-bee 3y ago
    indeed inconsistency is the problem. using the informal among colleagues at work, and especially with superiors is often the sign of a more relaxed work atmosphere, which is something people want and is thus becoming more common. especially in international companies where multiple languages are used. there is never a question what to use when i am talking to cashiers, clerks, etc. but when i am at a tech meetup or an informal gathering of people from different companies then the way to address people is very much in question. you never know how people like to be addressed. and while using the formal option may seem like the safe choice, it really isn't because it forces others to be formal with me too, and when i am the only one doing that it puts me into an odd position. the only safe option is to avoid any choice until the other makes their choice.
blowski 3y ago
> it makes me overthink every time about which one is appropriate to use now with people I don't know The issue still comes up, but in different ways. To a friend I might say "Where's the nearest cashpoint?", but to a stranger I'd say "Excuse me, but would you happen to know where I could find the nearest cashpoint, please".
netsharc 3y ago
German also has the 2 levels, but addressing the police with the informal you might get you into trouble. There's a great clip (not sure if it's a sketch show or a 360p mobile phone recording) of a guy peeking out of his apartment door and seeing a lot of coos, and he says to one of them, "Piss off, you (informal) asshole!." . The cop says "excuse me?", and the guy responds with, "Ah, sorry, you (formal) asshole!". The next bit is the cop kicking down the door... maybe it was one of those Cops-style reality shows.
- mewpmewp2 3y ago
  That's funny. But yeah, if someone has an authority over me like that, I wouldn't ever dare. It's mostly a question I guess when speaking to people I'm doing business/service with.
- Aaronmacaron 3y ago
  asshole is a very euphemistic translation
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - derriz 3y ago
    Could you explain. I'd guess "Arschloch"? The translation of "bad language" is very tricky. English is my mother tongue but I live in a German (sort-of, it's complicated) speaking country. I've learned that "scheisse" is not a very good translation for the English word "sh*t". It seems to me that the English word is much stronger/more offensive than the common German translation at least where I'm from. German "scheisse" seems more at the level of "damn" in my experience (maybe it varies according to region?) and so is acceptable to be used in many more situations than the common English translation - i.e. by young kids or with strangers. I think German speakers, as a result, don't realize how strong the English word is and use it a bit more liberally than would be expected. For example, I was very surprised that broadsheet (respectable) newspapers will casually drop an expression like "sh*tstorm" into a German sentence in a serious article.
jccalhoun 3y ago
I got my phd in Communication and when I taught interpersonal communication, one of the articles we would have students read had an example of an American who was in Austria for a year or two. He was at a party talking to an Austrian friend when the Austrian's girlfriend came over. She stared using the informal "you." Later he asked her why she had decided to use the informal and she said, "I don't know. I just did it. You were talking with my boyfriend so I assumed I was on the same level as him." https://www.google.com/books/edition/Language_Shock/xOE4nPuWq10C?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA18&printsec=frontcover&dq=german https://www.google.com/books/edition/Language_Shock/xOE4nPuW...
mderazon 3y ago
Wouldn't you always need to think a little on how to engage with formal vs informal even if the language didn't have it built in ? I wouldn't address a child the same as a stranger or a boss even in English

NewsyHacker 3y ago

If negotiating the tu/vous distinction takes major mental effort, are you on the spectrum? Difficulty with understanding social cues and (these distinctions are also about creating distance) other people’s space is a typical trait of autism. These linguistic innovations wouldn't spread – and often quickly, within a couple of generations – if the neurotypical masses found them burdensome. I'm in a country with this distinction, too, and I don't like strangers addressing me with the informal just like that. Every sociolinguistic setting is different, but using just the informal might not automatically create rapport but the opposite. Saying people like myself aren't worth your time sounds like sour grapes, and it might rob you of some opportunities.

mewpmewp2 3y ago
I had a psychologist diagnose me, and I was almost on the spectrum according to the test (with points), but not quite to give me the diagnosis. Obviously the questionnaires are ambiguous with their questions enough to have so many different ways of interpreting the questions that to me makes many of those questions non-sensical in the first place. But actually, I have been to mental institutions multiple times, and in many cases the evaluators have mentioned "autistic tendencies". In the end - am I on the spectrum? I don't know, but I still would feel like I would benefit from it if I would just try to make a joke and then become warm and call them with the informal and singular "you" in my language. I hope it could show that we are all in this together.
brnt 3y ago
In the Netherlands, it is very regional whether or not you use the polite form. In the capital region, it is not used, and use is a signifier you are from the countryside, if your accent wasn't enough. There are courses on how to get rid of your accent (or rather, get one of the capital region), and ceasing the employ of the polite form is featured.
- NewsyHacker 3y ago
  I’m surprised to read this, inasmuch as when I briefly lived in Rotterdam (if “capital region” comprises it, too) some years ago, my local acquaintances coached me in where to use the formal, and where to use the informal, and the distinction seemed very much alive.
  - brnt 3y ago
    A Rotterdammer using the polite form is the Dutch equivalent of angels flying out of ones bumhole: I've never seen it. Joking aside: theres the school version of pioitesse, and the actual version.
- tacker2000 3y ago
  Thats funny because in Austria it’s the other way around. People in Vienna are used to being overpolite and will use the formal “Sie” abundantly, whereas on the countryside everyone is always almost “Du”. There is the saying: “Am Land sind alle per Du”.
  - brnt 3y ago
    It isn't difficult to see why. Vienna was an imperial capital, the Netherlands 'capital region' was ruled by (wealthy) capitalists. One group would be focused on courtesy, the other on efficiency, wouldn't they? Naturally, both are ultimately evolved into appearance, not substance (because of courae this difference isnt substantial).
ffgjgf1 3y ago
> If negotiating the tu/vous distinction takes major mental effort, are you on the spectrum For me it’s the fact that these days it’s very inconsistent. The “rules” were pretty clear 20-30+ years ago. Now it’s a bit of a mess and there is a lot of overlap. > Saying people like myself aren't worth your time sounds like sour grapes I mean.. you’re somebody who just claimed that a random person is autistic because he doesn’t conform with some social norm you find to be somehow extremely important (specifically) in your environment. So it might not be such a bad heuristic.
- NewsyHacker 3y ago
  I didn’t claim that the person was autistic, I asked. And I asked because the way he described his difficulty is precisely what can finds in the literature on autism and sociolinguistics. And as you can see, I wasn’t far off the mark. I also specifically said that the rules of my environment might not apply to his.
- em-bee 3y ago
  indeed inconsistency is the problem. using the informal among colleagues at work, and especially with superiors is often the sign of a more relaxed work atmosphere, which is something people want and is thus becoming more common. especially in international companies where multiple languages are used. there is never a question what to use when i am talking to cashiers, clerks, etc. but when i am at a tech meetup or an informal gathering of people from different companies then the way to address people is very much in question. you never know how people like to be addressed. and while using the formal option may seem like the safe choice, it really isn't because it forces others to be formal with me too, and when i am the only one doing that it puts me into an odd position. the only safe option is to avoid any choice until the other makes their choice.

blowski 3y ago

> it makes me overthink every time about which one is appropriate to use now with people I don't know The issue still comes up, but in different ways. To a friend I might say "Where's the nearest cashpoint?", but to a stranger I'd say "Excuse me, but would you happen to know where I could find the nearest cashpoint, please".

netsharc 3y ago

German also has the 2 levels, but addressing the police with the informal you might get you into trouble. There's a great clip (not sure if it's a sketch show or a 360p mobile phone recording) of a guy peeking out of his apartment door and seeing a lot of coos, and he says to one of them, "Piss off, you (informal) asshole!." . The cop says "excuse me?", and the guy responds with, "Ah, sorry, you (formal) asshole!". The next bit is the cop kicking down the door... maybe it was one of those Cops-style reality shows.

mewpmewp2 3y ago
That's funny. But yeah, if someone has an authority over me like that, I wouldn't ever dare. It's mostly a question I guess when speaking to people I'm doing business/service with.
Aaronmacaron 3y ago
asshole is a very euphemistic translation
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- derriz 3y ago
  Could you explain. I'd guess "Arschloch"? The translation of "bad language" is very tricky. English is my mother tongue but I live in a German (sort-of, it's complicated) speaking country. I've learned that "scheisse" is not a very good translation for the English word "sh*t". It seems to me that the English word is much stronger/more offensive than the common German translation at least where I'm from. German "scheisse" seems more at the level of "damn" in my experience (maybe it varies according to region?) and so is acceptable to be used in many more situations than the common English translation - i.e. by young kids or with strangers. I think German speakers, as a result, don't realize how strong the English word is and use it a bit more liberally than would be expected. For example, I was very surprised that broadsheet (respectable) newspapers will casually drop an expression like "sh*tstorm" into a German sentence in a serious article.

jccalhoun 3y ago

I got my phd in Communication and when I taught interpersonal communication, one of the articles we would have students read had an example of an American who was in Austria for a year or two. He was at a party talking to an Austrian friend when the Austrian's girlfriend came over. She stared using the informal "you." Later he asked her why she had decided to use the informal and she said, "I don't know. I just did it. You were talking with my boyfriend so I assumed I was on the same level as him." https://www.google.com/books/edition/Language_Shock/xOE4nPuWq10C?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA18&printsec=frontcover&dq=german https://www.google.com/books/edition/Language_Shock/xOE4nPuW...

mderazon 3y ago

Wouldn't you always need to think a little on how to engage with formal vs informal even if the language didn't have it built in ? I wouldn't address a child the same as a stranger or a boss even in English