4 ms·

Afterthought: the post below illustrates the paucity of modern English in that nowadays in modern English no distinction is made between the second and third pe

Afterthought: the post below illustrates the paucity of modern English in that nowadays in modern English no distinction is made between the second and third person 'you' whereas in other languages such as German it still is. __ I've mentioned on HN previously when discussing languages that when my father was learning German his old textbook had the English thee, thou, and thine/thy as the second person for the German second person du. One of the faux pas for English speakers when learning German is the incorrect usage of du. They mistakenly use du instead of sie because it's more informal than sie not realizing that in German it is reserved for the closest of relationships such as family, lovers etc. Essentially, in German du — the equivalent form of the second person English thou — is still a part of the living language whereas in English thou is now archaic. The correct usage of du became immediately obvious to me after seeing my father's textbook. For the life of me I cannot understand why modern English textbooks simply substitute you for du, it's just crazy as it leads to much confusion. Thou and variants are understood by most native English speakers even if the term is now archaic so it makes sense to use it instead of you in textbooks for learning German. Just one additional paragraph would be needed to explain and clean up the you/du mess. I have been trying for years to find out why the authors of modern (current) textbooks now use you instead of thou. I'd be most grateful if someone who knows the rationale behind it would post the reason. Incidentally, my father's textbook was published sometime around 1930, so this you substitution is a relatively recent phenomena.

baxtr 3y ago
I've heard that “Sie Asshole” is the proper way to insult someone while staying polite.
- atoav 3y ago
  "Sie Arschloch" is funny in that it highlights that one: 1. has enough manners to not call people you don't know "du" (and you are not letting emotionality override those manners) 2. yet you know that person well enough to judge their behaviour and call them out as an asshole It is a bit like punching someone with velvet gloves.
biztos 3y ago
> it is reserved for the closest of relationships such as family, lovers etc. You use du for your friends, your classmates, people your own age up through about college, and anyone you think you are or should be on informal terms with. Such as shop workers (sometimes), bartenders (usually), waiters (depending on location), random people in the street (in places like Berlin, if they're not senior citizens), and anyone -- regardless of age or station -- who has said du to you first, unless you want to very specifically snub them. You use du with people you play Fußball against even if you've never met them before and they're ten years older than you. Same with drinking. It would, perhaps counterintuitively, be rude to use Sie in many social situations involving complete strangers. Unless they're old. Then there is the ritual, rarely followed anymore, of actually formally suggesting that you and someone else -- usually a work colleague -- use du with each other... and refusing that request is giving a very cold shoulder, there normally would not be another offer in one lifetime. (An "inferior" should not suggest it to his/her "superior," that would also be inappropriate.) Du does enough work in German as she is spoke, I don't think it makes sense for foreigners to learn the Sie form before having proper facility with all the du grammar. Given the immigration trends of the last 20 years, people will just be happy to hear German in the first place. Then learn to properly siezen when you're already conversational. My zwo Pfennig anyway.
- pvg 3y ago
  I'll second just about all of this, the one bit of colour I can add - years ago I had a summer job in a German-speaking (auto) shop where a majority of the workers, including some of the management were immigrants with a fairly wide range of German proficiency but everyone had picked up the onsite du/Sie conventions (along with some others like shaking hands at the beginning of the shift). It's, like you're saying, as much a cultural convention with contextual intricacies as it is a grammatical feature of the language.
  - hilbert42 3y ago
    Right, see my reply to biztos.
    - 3y ago
t8sr 3y ago
Interesting. I learned German in Switzerland and the only people who ever use sie are all over 50. Everyone you meet is addressed as du, except maybe in formal letters. I’m wondering if some weird looks I sometimes get in Germany might be because of that. Is “sie” used more commonly there?
- moffkalast 3y ago
  "Sie hast" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
LAC-Tech 3y ago
I remember when I was learning German seriously I switched over software and websites to German... and felt very uncomfortable that facebook would always use 'du' with me. I'm guessing it's some marketing "oh we're so informal and cool" marketing wank talk, but it grossed me out. Not sure if any native German speakers that had that reaction.
- ruune 3y ago
  E-Mails from big cooperations become increasingly "du". Sometimes it's still weird, but overall everyone got used to being on "du" basis with big faceless cooperations. I don't really notice anymore. That being said, I'm young enough to have not really experienced a time when it was unheard of to call someone you don't know really well "du". I'm only learning from this thread that it seems to be a fairly recent development.
- HeckFeck 3y ago
  Certainly, even in British English I remember when my bank moved from formal text messages to 'friendly' on the basis of a survey I never remember receiving. It is weird getting a balance update with "Hi" as the leader and emoticons throughout. We're not chums, just give me the news in the most emotionless manner possible. And don't get me started on the direction Microsoft went with Windows 10/11. "We're just getting things ready!" "Working on it..." "Something went wrong :(".... Eugh!
stavros 3y ago
In contrast, in Spanish, they generally say "tu" rather than "usted", eg in restaurants, shops, etc. "Usted" is reserved for the more polite interactions, older people, etc.
- brational 3y ago
  Totally depends on country.
hilbert42 3y ago
"English no distinction is made between the second and third person 'you'." Duh! I ought to read what I write before posing. Obviously what I said is garbage, what I meant was '...in modern English no distinction is made between the second person singular and plural forms in that both use the pronoun'you.'

baxtr 3y ago

I've heard that “Sie Asshole” is the proper way to insult someone while staying polite.

atoav 3y ago
"Sie Arschloch" is funny in that it highlights that one: 1. has enough manners to not call people you don't know "du" (and you are not letting emotionality override those manners) 2. yet you know that person well enough to judge their behaviour and call them out as an asshole It is a bit like punching someone with velvet gloves.

biztos 3y ago

> it is reserved for the closest of relationships such as family, lovers etc. You use du for your friends, your classmates, people your own age up through about college, and anyone you think you are or should be on informal terms with. Such as shop workers (sometimes), bartenders (usually), waiters (depending on location), random people in the street (in places like Berlin, if they're not senior citizens), and anyone -- regardless of age or station -- who has said du to you first, unless you want to very specifically snub them. You use du with people you play Fußball against even if you've never met them before and they're ten years older than you. Same with drinking. It would, perhaps counterintuitively, be rude to use Sie in many social situations involving complete strangers. Unless they're old. Then there is the ritual, rarely followed anymore, of actually formally suggesting that you and someone else -- usually a work colleague -- use du with each other... and refusing that request is giving a very cold shoulder, there normally would not be another offer in one lifetime. (An "inferior" should not suggest it to his/her "superior," that would also be inappropriate.) Du does enough work in German as she is spoke, I don't think it makes sense for foreigners to learn the Sie form before having proper facility with all the du grammar. Given the immigration trends of the last 20 years, people will just be happy to hear German in the first place. Then learn to properly siezen when you're already conversational. My zwo Pfennig anyway.

pvg 3y ago
I'll second just about all of this, the one bit of colour I can add - years ago I had a summer job in a German-speaking (auto) shop where a majority of the workers, including some of the management were immigrants with a fairly wide range of German proficiency but everyone had picked up the onsite du/Sie conventions (along with some others like shaking hands at the beginning of the shift). It's, like you're saying, as much a cultural convention with contextual intricacies as it is a grammatical feature of the language.
- hilbert42 3y ago
  Right, see my reply to biztos.
  - 3y ago

t8sr 3y ago

Interesting. I learned German in Switzerland and the only people who ever use sie are all over 50. Everyone you meet is addressed as du, except maybe in formal letters. I’m wondering if some weird looks I sometimes get in Germany might be because of that. Is “sie” used more commonly there?

moffkalast 3y ago
"Sie hast" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

LAC-Tech 3y ago

I remember when I was learning German seriously I switched over software and websites to German... and felt very uncomfortable that facebook would always use 'du' with me. I'm guessing it's some marketing "oh we're so informal and cool" marketing wank talk, but it grossed me out. Not sure if any native German speakers that had that reaction.

ruune 3y ago
E-Mails from big cooperations become increasingly "du". Sometimes it's still weird, but overall everyone got used to being on "du" basis with big faceless cooperations. I don't really notice anymore. That being said, I'm young enough to have not really experienced a time when it was unheard of to call someone you don't know really well "du". I'm only learning from this thread that it seems to be a fairly recent development.
HeckFeck 3y ago
Certainly, even in British English I remember when my bank moved from formal text messages to 'friendly' on the basis of a survey I never remember receiving. It is weird getting a balance update with "Hi" as the leader and emoticons throughout. We're not chums, just give me the news in the most emotionless manner possible. And don't get me started on the direction Microsoft went with Windows 10/11. "We're just getting things ready!" "Working on it..." "Something went wrong :(".... Eugh!

stavros 3y ago

In contrast, in Spanish, they generally say "tu" rather than "usted", eg in restaurants, shops, etc. "Usted" is reserved for the more polite interactions, older people, etc.

brational 3y ago
Totally depends on country.

hilbert42 3y ago

"English no distinction is made between the second and third person 'you'." Duh! I ought to read what I write before posing. Obviously what I said is garbage, what I meant was '...in modern English no distinction is made between the second person singular and plural forms in that both use the pronoun'you.'