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> Even their updated 2017 demands did not include peace with Israel if met. India doesn't have peace with Pakistan. Doesn't mean the 2 nuclear powers (similarl

> Even their updated 2017 demands did not include peace with Israel if met. India doesn't have peace with Pakistan. Doesn't mean the 2 nuclear powers (similarly partitioned up by the British) are at perpetual war. Hamas like PA accepts 2SS. It is expantionists in Israel that reject it. In fact, PA concedes to have a state on merely 19% of historic Palestine.

reissbaker 3y ago
I feel like you missed the part where the official Hamas spokesman called for permanent war.
- ignoramous 3y ago
  You miss the part where Hamas was ready to step aside, as recently as 2021, if it meant a political agreement could be reached over the establishment of the Palestinian state: https://www.972mag.com/hamas-fatah-elections-israel-arrogance/ https://www.972mag.com/hamas-fatah-elections-israel-arroganc... Anyhow, after Hamas is gone like we are promised, let's see what new excuses crop up (like, 'all Pal civilians are Nazis' is already gathering some steam) to continue the subjugation of the Palestinians.
  - reissbaker 3y ago
    My statement is from 2023 and is the current state of affairs. Your source from 2021 does not include: 1. An actual statement 2. That was ever enacted FYI, what you are referring to is actually a proposal from Fatah to hold elections in 2021, and a promise from Hamas not to run. Hamas backed out of the agreement and ended up submitting candidates to run, despite briefly claiming they wouldn't, and according to Marwan Barghouti and Mohammad Dahlan [1], and even Hamas themselves [2], Abbas then canceled the elections out of fear his party would lose. Your article's claim that it was due to "heavy pressure" from the United States and Israel is unsourced; and regardless, long before the time of the cancellation, Hamas was running and any pretense that they would step aside was gone. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_e... 2: https://web.archive.org/web/20210430012358/https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-slams-abbass-decision-to-delay-palestinian-vote-as-a-coup/ https://web.archive.org/web/20210430012358/https://www.times...
    - ignoramous 3y ago
      > My statement is from 2023... GP started off with something from 2004! Glad we are making progress with timelines here, if nothing else. Speaking of 2023 statements, the ruling party in Israel democratically elected for 2 decades now, have made it abundantly clear that they'll continue to thwart any attempts at 2SS (https://archive.is/34Sg0 https://archive.is/34Sg0) because 'security of the only democracy in the Middle East is at stake'. Apartheid? Yes, for security. Siege? Aiwa, security. Bombing Syria and Iran? Also, security. I'd like to smoke what they are in Knesset to be this drunk on conflict and war. And for the majority to continue to vote them in, because 'security', is telling. The result is, Kahanists are now elected ministers; but God forbid Pals elect 'terrorists'... > Hamas backed out of the agreement and ended up submitting candidates to run I don't see a single mention of Hamas in the 2021 roster: https://www.elections.ps/tabid/1163/language/ar-PS/Default.aspx https://www.elections.ps/tabid/1163/language/ar-PS/Default.a... The Wikipedia page you linked to merely points out a former Hamas leader was running under a new party. > Your article's claim that it was due to "heavy pressure" from the United States and Israel is unsourced Abu Mazen is a puppet. No reason to believe he cancelled the elections despite ALL other factions (some 25+) wanting one. He most certainly can't do so without the support of whoever funds his little fiefdom. It is a forgone conclusion, as people say. > Hamas was running and any pretense that they would step aside was gone. I mean, you state that there hasn't been an actual statement (see below) but also claim it is all a ruse all in the space of 3 paragraphs... The full minutes of the talks were published in an official Emirati document. In essence, the message of the Hamas leadership was clear: "If you in Fatah are convinced that you can get a state from Israel along the 1967 lines through negotiations, go for it. We will not interfere."
      - reissbaker 3y ago
        That is not a statement from Hamas, it is the author editorializing minutes from a meeting. The Wikipedia article that I linked shows the actual list of candidates and parties, which include Hamas, as well as sources for them and opinion polls showing Hamas was likely going to win the election. These are just the facts. Feel free to look at the official candidate lists and opinion polls if you disagree. Hamas was running and the opinion piece you posted is incorrect — they were not going to sit out the election. Here is the direct quote from Wikipedia, since you're claiming it doesn't say Hamas was running: The March 31 midnight deadline for submissions of electoral lists saw 36 lists officially presented,[69] including: Fatah, led by Mahmoud Aloul[70] Freedom, headed by Nasser al-Qudwa and Fadwa Barghouti, the wife of Marwan Barghouti[71] Hamas (running as "Jerusalem is Our Promise"), led by Khalil al-Hayya[70] ... I am not sure why you keep arguing unsourced claims — to the point of claiming that Abbas did not cancel elections, when every source points out that he did, and Hamas themselves say he did and called it a coup by Fatah. Posting random quotes from Netanyahu that do not reference the 2021 election does not back up your claim that Hamas was willing to sit out the election. I don't like Netanyahu either, but that doesn't mean that somehow Hamas wasn't trying to stay in power.

reissbaker 3y ago

I feel like you missed the part where the official Hamas spokesman called for permanent war.

ignoramous 3y ago
You miss the part where Hamas was ready to step aside, as recently as 2021, if it meant a political agreement could be reached over the establishment of the Palestinian state: https://www.972mag.com/hamas-fatah-elections-israel-arrogance/ https://www.972mag.com/hamas-fatah-elections-israel-arroganc... Anyhow, after Hamas is gone like we are promised, let's see what new excuses crop up (like, 'all Pal civilians are Nazis' is already gathering some steam) to continue the subjugation of the Palestinians.
- reissbaker 3y ago
  My statement is from 2023 and is the current state of affairs. Your source from 2021 does not include: 1. An actual statement 2. That was ever enacted FYI, what you are referring to is actually a proposal from Fatah to hold elections in 2021, and a promise from Hamas not to run. Hamas backed out of the agreement and ended up submitting candidates to run, despite briefly claiming they wouldn't, and according to Marwan Barghouti and Mohammad Dahlan [1], and even Hamas themselves [2], Abbas then canceled the elections out of fear his party would lose. Your article's claim that it was due to "heavy pressure" from the United States and Israel is unsourced; and regardless, long before the time of the cancellation, Hamas was running and any pretense that they would step aside was gone. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_e... 2: https://web.archive.org/web/20210430012358/https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-slams-abbass-decision-to-delay-palestinian-vote-as-a-coup/ https://web.archive.org/web/20210430012358/https://www.times...
  - ignoramous 3y ago
    > My statement is from 2023... GP started off with something from 2004! Glad we are making progress with timelines here, if nothing else. Speaking of 2023 statements, the ruling party in Israel democratically elected for 2 decades now, have made it abundantly clear that they'll continue to thwart any attempts at 2SS (https://archive.is/34Sg0 https://archive.is/34Sg0) because 'security of the only democracy in the Middle East is at stake'. Apartheid? Yes, for security. Siege? Aiwa, security. Bombing Syria and Iran? Also, security. I'd like to smoke what they are in Knesset to be this drunk on conflict and war. And for the majority to continue to vote them in, because 'security', is telling. The result is, Kahanists are now elected ministers; but God forbid Pals elect 'terrorists'... > Hamas backed out of the agreement and ended up submitting candidates to run I don't see a single mention of Hamas in the 2021 roster: https://www.elections.ps/tabid/1163/language/ar-PS/Default.aspx https://www.elections.ps/tabid/1163/language/ar-PS/Default.a... The Wikipedia page you linked to merely points out a former Hamas leader was running under a new party. > Your article's claim that it was due to "heavy pressure" from the United States and Israel is unsourced Abu Mazen is a puppet. No reason to believe he cancelled the elections despite ALL other factions (some 25+) wanting one. He most certainly can't do so without the support of whoever funds his little fiefdom. It is a forgone conclusion, as people say. > Hamas was running and any pretense that they would step aside was gone. I mean, you state that there hasn't been an actual statement (see below) but also claim it is all a ruse all in the space of 3 paragraphs... The full minutes of the talks were published in an official Emirati document. In essence, the message of the Hamas leadership was clear: "If you in Fatah are convinced that you can get a state from Israel along the 1967 lines through negotiations, go for it. We will not interfere."
    - reissbaker 3y ago
      That is not a statement from Hamas, it is the author editorializing minutes from a meeting. The Wikipedia article that I linked shows the actual list of candidates and parties, which include Hamas, as well as sources for them and opinion polls showing Hamas was likely going to win the election. These are just the facts. Feel free to look at the official candidate lists and opinion polls if you disagree. Hamas was running and the opinion piece you posted is incorrect — they were not going to sit out the election. Here is the direct quote from Wikipedia, since you're claiming it doesn't say Hamas was running: The March 31 midnight deadline for submissions of electoral lists saw 36 lists officially presented,[69] including: Fatah, led by Mahmoud Aloul[70] Freedom, headed by Nasser al-Qudwa and Fadwa Barghouti, the wife of Marwan Barghouti[71] Hamas (running as "Jerusalem is Our Promise"), led by Khalil al-Hayya[70] ... I am not sure why you keep arguing unsourced claims — to the point of claiming that Abbas did not cancel elections, when every source points out that he did, and Hamas themselves say he did and called it a coup by Fatah. Posting random quotes from Netanyahu that do not reference the 2021 election does not back up your claim that Hamas was willing to sit out the election. I don't like Netanyahu either, but that doesn't mean that somehow Hamas wasn't trying to stay in power.