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I think you're missing the point of that comment. Yes, you don't want to hire someone to a programming role if they have absolutely no skill or knowledge in the

I think you're missing the point of that comment. Yes, you don't want to hire someone to a programming role if they have absolutely no skill or knowledge in the subject and "cannot we write a loop". But that will become quite clear during the interview regardless if you have them doing some leetcode challenge or not. The important part to me is whether they can function in the present team, whether they can employ problem solving skills in a positive way. Sure, let's whiteboard out a problem, show me how you think about it, how you approach it, what steps you take to disassemble it. But also, if you're stuck do you ask for help? Can you discuss the problem without having a solution ready, do you have ideas about how to research it, can you present paths to progress? These are the really important attributes, not "have you memorized this wacky algorithmic solution in the last two weeks". Pure whiteboard tests are just stupid, don't shed light on someone's potential, and carry a context that makes a lot of intelligent high potential individuals freeze up. They select for the wrong traits.

dilyevsky 3y ago
> But that will become quite clear during the interview regardless if you have them doing some leetcode challenge or not. No, no it won’t. I’ve done 300 interviews when i stopped counting and I’ve had all sorts of people who talk a good game but absolutely can’t code
- Tknl 3y ago
  I second this. I've been interviewing candidates for around 6 years and I feel like the number of applicants with very strong communication skills but that cannot perform the most simple programming problems (basic loop, swapping two variables) went up. For my team and most teams at my employer we employ a simple test with a basic programming problem, code review problem and rudimentary system design problem similar to our actual work. We expect the juniors and medior to not succeed at all of these but do want to see how candidates think and communicate if they get stuck, but a junior that can't sort strings in any language of choice is a hard pass. Half of our candidates past initial phone screen fail this test. I do wonder though if this has something to do with the local (NL) market.
  - mlhpdx 3y ago
    Each company I’ve worked with has attracted a slightly different group of applicants, so I find it easy to believe NL would be different yet. Whenever I start thinking the problem is the candidates I start asking myself “why?”. Why we came to the conclusion we did, why they applied, why we need more people on the team, etc.
  - dilyevsky 3y ago
    It’s not your local market and this is not new. I interviewed folks at google head office in 2012 so we had people from all over the world and different experience levels and it was the same thing
- Warwolt 3y ago
  What kinds of questions could you possibly ask that doesn't immediately surface this? A person who "cannot write a loop" will not be able to earnestly hold a conversation about programming.
  - dilyevsky 3y ago
    You are so wrong about that. I’ve had people recite gang of four design patterns and talk about template metaprogramming then absolutely fail at writing a doubly nested loop in their language of choice. Coding is a skill that you can only really master with practice not just reading books and blogposts (although that definitely helps) I asked very basic coding questions that didn’t require “advanced” algorithmic knowledge like DP which are popular at some shops
mlhpdx 3y ago
Exactly. At the other end of the spectrum, having a conversation also exposes the “over prepared”. There are some (few) folks that practice leetcode all day, but that doesn’t translate to team fit and on the job value creation. Not being able to communicate while working (not continuously, small amounts with good effect is fine) is a bit of an orange flag for me.

dilyevsky 3y ago

> But that will become quite clear during the interview regardless if you have them doing some leetcode challenge or not. No, no it won’t. I’ve done 300 interviews when i stopped counting and I’ve had all sorts of people who talk a good game but absolutely can’t code

Tknl 3y ago
I second this. I've been interviewing candidates for around 6 years and I feel like the number of applicants with very strong communication skills but that cannot perform the most simple programming problems (basic loop, swapping two variables) went up. For my team and most teams at my employer we employ a simple test with a basic programming problem, code review problem and rudimentary system design problem similar to our actual work. We expect the juniors and medior to not succeed at all of these but do want to see how candidates think and communicate if they get stuck, but a junior that can't sort strings in any language of choice is a hard pass. Half of our candidates past initial phone screen fail this test. I do wonder though if this has something to do with the local (NL) market.
- mlhpdx 3y ago
  Each company I’ve worked with has attracted a slightly different group of applicants, so I find it easy to believe NL would be different yet. Whenever I start thinking the problem is the candidates I start asking myself “why?”. Why we came to the conclusion we did, why they applied, why we need more people on the team, etc.
- dilyevsky 3y ago
  It’s not your local market and this is not new. I interviewed folks at google head office in 2012 so we had people from all over the world and different experience levels and it was the same thing
Warwolt 3y ago
What kinds of questions could you possibly ask that doesn't immediately surface this? A person who "cannot write a loop" will not be able to earnestly hold a conversation about programming.
- dilyevsky 3y ago
  You are so wrong about that. I’ve had people recite gang of four design patterns and talk about template metaprogramming then absolutely fail at writing a doubly nested loop in their language of choice. Coding is a skill that you can only really master with practice not just reading books and blogposts (although that definitely helps) I asked very basic coding questions that didn’t require “advanced” algorithmic knowledge like DP which are popular at some shops

mlhpdx 3y ago

Exactly. At the other end of the spectrum, having a conversation also exposes the “over prepared”. There are some (few) folks that practice leetcode all day, but that doesn’t translate to team fit and on the job value creation. Not being able to communicate while working (not continuously, small amounts with good effect is fine) is a bit of an orange flag for me.