4 ms·

>The biggest tragedy in america right now, one that fuels the apathy and national self-destruction is the lack of gratitude and appreciation of just how preciou

>The biggest tragedy in america right now, one that fuels the apathy and national self-destruction is the lack of gratitude and appreciation of just how precious and priceless the peace, stability and prosperity we have now (not decades ago but today) is. Americans just simply don't know the levels of poverty and desperation much of the world has seen, it is just impossible here. This sounds entirely ripped off from a Joe Rogan podcast. Sounds like you are in the WASP bubble. You likely haven't experienced living in the hood, having to be treated like a Muslim in the US, having to deal with MAGA people bitching about your existence as a Mexican migrant and many other scenarios. There is plenty to improve in the US and your mentality would have ensured that we never would have gotten things like the Civil Rights act, interracial marriage, or even the immense progress made in favor of LGBTQ rights. Its not the people that are thankful to their country that enact change. Its the rebels who go against the mainstream and demand justice that eventually make history. They are always called ungrateful haters...at least until they win.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> You likely haven't experienced living in the hood My poorest (growing up, as in not concerned about no food, but actually no food and sometimes no housing) friends who travel internationally come back grateful for where they are. > your mentality would have ensured that we never would have gotten things like the Civil Rights act, interracial marriage, or even the immense progress made in favor of LGBTQ rights 100% agree. That said, there is middle ground between bootlicking gratitude and cynicism that borders on complacency.
sciolist 3y ago
We shouldn't reduce or avoid removing any of the struggles you've brought up - those are real and we need to remove them. With that being said, most of what OP said is true: Americans are in a good position because of many factors - national security being an important one. I interpret OP's comment not as a call to rest on the US's good position, but to fight for it and improve it. We can both hold that the US has major issues that need to be fixed, while saying we need to fight against countries that would work to destabilize the US. If we don't fight for the struggles you've mentioned (and other ones!), the US won't improve. But, if we don't also recognize our worldwide position and work to prevent countries from destabilizing it, everything will get worse for everyone. > Its not the people that are thankful to their country that enact change. I disagree, we can be recognize some aspects of a country and be thankful (fighting to keep the good we have) while still improving on others. I hope it is clear I'm speaking in good faith
- _8j50 3y ago
  Your interpretation of my comment is spot on. I am concerned there won't be an america to improve upon. Once america is desrabilized you can't stabilize again. A world of russian, chinese and middle eastern dominance with a destabilized US is not good either for the civil rights concerns/improvements the person you replied to brought up.
  - sciolist 3y ago
    Agreed - the rebuttal comment you got had the example of "having to deal with MAGA people bitching about your existence as a Mexican migrant". Russia has been is conducting influence campaigns to stir up these very problems! NatSec is important for these social issues too.
    - nebula8804 3y ago
      The best way to neutralize those influence campaigns is to solve the underlying problems that cause the campaign to take root.
  - nebula8804 3y ago
    A world with an America unchallenged by anything is also dangerous. Thats how we get a 20 year war with countless innocent lives destroyed, entire regions destabilized and a host of other terrible situations. The country is just that: a country, a collection of humans with human flaws. America at its best was when it was trying to prove the effectiveness of its system over others day in and day out because it was being challenged. Thats how we got a lot of the freedoms and benefits that we have now.
_8j50 3y ago
I don't listen to joe rogan or any personality. You don't know a single thing about me, I know and have seen much more than you think that I won't voluntarily share on a public forum. > There is plenty to improve in the US What part of anything I said disagrees with that? You sir/madam are a prime example of the people I am talking about. > would have ensured that we never would have gotten things like the Civil Rights act, interracial marriage, or even the immense progress made in favor of LGBTQ rights. And you would have made sure those things would be the least of anyone's concerns as the japanese enslave half of america and the nazis genocide the crap out of all those people you listed. And if it so happens that none of that happens, if you got your way none of those things would happen because america would be too poor and miserable. Or perhaps you don't realize that the civil rights changes of the 60s were a result of post world war prosperity and peace (yes, despite vietnam). Do you think americans in the great depression would even tolerate the civil rights discussion? Do you think they'd share jobs with minorities and women or allow cheaper immigrants from other countries as they are starving? Or so you think current civil rights can't be taken away? Do you undersrand that the civil part implies civilization? Hungry desparate people, cooking their own children for food out of despair (almost always happens in desperate prolonged famine) do not care about civilization. > Its not the people that are thankful to their country that enact change Yes it is, the good kind. This wonderful country allowed all the change you mentioned in the 60s without a single civil war, out of the kindness and compassion of a people who can afford it. A century earlier, millions who love their country died for the concept that all people are born equal. > Its the rebels who go against the mainstream and demand justice that eventually make history. No, it was the rebels in america both in the 1860s, 1960s (US military escorting kids to school because states rebelled against civil rights) and 2021(jan 6) who love their race/tribe more han their country who opposed and failed against all things you hold precious there. Rebellion is always disgusting and treasonous. You must not have heard the speeches of MLK who very much liked America just not all the things horribly wrong with it. He understood that the civil rights movement must work within the system and through civil disobedience and democratic means enact change. Loving your country and appreciating it does not mean you love the politicians or even the government in its current state. It is because you people don't get any if this that you merely pay lip service to progress and all you end up doing is alienating people and dividing up your country and increasing the number of people who share your hatred for their country except they want to do the opposite of you. > They are always called ungrateful haters...at least until they win. What they are called and what they said and did are different things. Hating your country until you see change is not how democracy works. Perhaps you should learn from immigrants who come to america seeking a better life despite their financial situation and like them find your way to a better life if you think there is one to be found. Your problem is that of perspective. It's usually people who volunteered for a long time in poor countries or military service members who similarly been to those countries that seem to have the perspective I tried to share. A homeless, jobless person in the hood in america has a better quality of life and opportunities than an educated doctor in sub-saharan africa. Forget that, pick a single poor country randomly and and try finding a place where a poor uneducated black gay woman can be treated as a human being to begin with right along find jobs (good ones), be able to actually buy goods with money, be safe and be treated with a semblance of fairness in the work place. That rules out most of asia and easern europe. Maybe south africa (if considered poor),maybe some south american countries but that rules out the jobs and opportunities being good (perhaps brazil? But even then their black people are having an even harder time than american counterparts). I have many comments about all the things that need changing in america far beyond what you listed. But every single one is because I think this amazing country is worth working on and improving not because I don't like america. And funnily, people have the opposite response to me thinking perhaps I should find another home. Perhaps it is our perspective that is different not what we believe needs changing.
amadeuspagel 3y ago
Isn't Joe Rogan italian? How can someone be in a WASP bubble when they listen to Joe Rogan?
- nebula8804 3y ago
  You are right, maybe we need a new term to describe upper middle class white American detached from the rest of the problems occurring in the country. Frankly, he should know better having started his early years in Newark, NJ and occasionally being on welfare.
Levitz 3y ago
>This sounds entirely ripped off from a Joe Rogan podcast. Sounds like you are in the WASP bubble. You likely haven't experienced living in the hood, having to be treated like a Muslim in the US, having to deal with MAGA people bitching about your existence as a Mexican migrant and many other scenarios. Yet African Americans are WAY better off than those in Africa, and Muslims and Mexicans migrate to the US for better conditions.There is plenty to improve in the US, sure, but it's a better place than the majority of the world, why on the world do you think people go there in the first place? Hell the US is outstanding precisely when it comes to racism, do you have any idea of how racist people are in Asia? Africa? Even Europe?
- nebula8804 3y ago
  >There is plenty to improve in the US, sure, but it's a better place than the majority of the world, why on the world do you think people go there in the first place? Its a desirable place to go to place BECAUSE of prior generations rebelling against the status quo. When the Civil Rights Act was being debated, there was a push by the south to "not go too fast". The argument by the south in 1965 was that African Americans should be grateful that we have "separate but equal" and "look how far we have come from slavery"? [1]:https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/integration-moved-fast-many-americans-according-1965-poll https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/integration-moved-fast-m... We are experiencing the same nonsense today. Frankly I don't think we would have as many immigrants as we do if it weren't for all of these achievements that immigrants can take advantage of on day 1. As a child of immigrants I see a common tendency of immigrants in my communities to not rock the boat. In fact Trump has stated that he will consider deporting any immigrants who express support for Palestine. They effectively have this sword of Damocles hanging over them their entire lives. Now you could argue that since they are 'citizens' they have the full suite of rights as anyone else. They only have those rights until someone decides to test the limits and then they don't anymore. The children of immigrants born in the country have a very different outlook. They don't have the same mentality to not want to rock the boat. They are the ones who push major reform.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> You likely haven't experienced living in the hood My poorest (growing up, as in not concerned about no food, but actually no food and sometimes no housing) friends who travel internationally come back grateful for where they are. > your mentality would have ensured that we never would have gotten things like the Civil Rights act, interracial marriage, or even the immense progress made in favor of LGBTQ rights 100% agree. That said, there is middle ground between bootlicking gratitude and cynicism that borders on complacency.

sciolist 3y ago

We shouldn't reduce or avoid removing any of the struggles you've brought up - those are real and we need to remove them. With that being said, most of what OP said is true: Americans are in a good position because of many factors - national security being an important one. I interpret OP's comment not as a call to rest on the US's good position, but to fight for it and improve it. We can both hold that the US has major issues that need to be fixed, while saying we need to fight against countries that would work to destabilize the US. If we don't fight for the struggles you've mentioned (and other ones!), the US won't improve. But, if we don't also recognize our worldwide position and work to prevent countries from destabilizing it, everything will get worse for everyone. > Its not the people that are thankful to their country that enact change. I disagree, we can be recognize some aspects of a country and be thankful (fighting to keep the good we have) while still improving on others. I hope it is clear I'm speaking in good faith

_8j50 3y ago
Your interpretation of my comment is spot on. I am concerned there won't be an america to improve upon. Once america is desrabilized you can't stabilize again. A world of russian, chinese and middle eastern dominance with a destabilized US is not good either for the civil rights concerns/improvements the person you replied to brought up.
- sciolist 3y ago
  Agreed - the rebuttal comment you got had the example of "having to deal with MAGA people bitching about your existence as a Mexican migrant". Russia has been is conducting influence campaigns to stir up these very problems! NatSec is important for these social issues too.
  - nebula8804 3y ago
    The best way to neutralize those influence campaigns is to solve the underlying problems that cause the campaign to take root.
- nebula8804 3y ago
  A world with an America unchallenged by anything is also dangerous. Thats how we get a 20 year war with countless innocent lives destroyed, entire regions destabilized and a host of other terrible situations. The country is just that: a country, a collection of humans with human flaws. America at its best was when it was trying to prove the effectiveness of its system over others day in and day out because it was being challenged. Thats how we got a lot of the freedoms and benefits that we have now.

_8j50 3y ago

I don't listen to joe rogan or any personality. You don't know a single thing about me, I know and have seen much more than you think that I won't voluntarily share on a public forum. > There is plenty to improve in the US What part of anything I said disagrees with that? You sir/madam are a prime example of the people I am talking about. > would have ensured that we never would have gotten things like the Civil Rights act, interracial marriage, or even the immense progress made in favor of LGBTQ rights. And you would have made sure those things would be the least of anyone's concerns as the japanese enslave half of america and the nazis genocide the crap out of all those people you listed. And if it so happens that none of that happens, if you got your way none of those things would happen because america would be too poor and miserable. Or perhaps you don't realize that the civil rights changes of the 60s were a result of post world war prosperity and peace (yes, despite vietnam). Do you think americans in the great depression would even tolerate the civil rights discussion? Do you think they'd share jobs with minorities and women or allow cheaper immigrants from other countries as they are starving? Or so you think current civil rights can't be taken away? Do you undersrand that the civil part implies civilization? Hungry desparate people, cooking their own children for food out of despair (almost always happens in desperate prolonged famine) do not care about civilization. > Its not the people that are thankful to their country that enact change Yes it is, the good kind. This wonderful country allowed all the change you mentioned in the 60s without a single civil war, out of the kindness and compassion of a people who can afford it. A century earlier, millions who love their country died for the concept that all people are born equal. > Its the rebels who go against the mainstream and demand justice that eventually make history. No, it was the rebels in america both in the 1860s, 1960s (US military escorting kids to school because states rebelled against civil rights) and 2021(jan 6) who love their race/tribe more han their country who opposed and failed against all things you hold precious there. Rebellion is always disgusting and treasonous. You must not have heard the speeches of MLK who very much liked America just not all the things horribly wrong with it. He understood that the civil rights movement must work within the system and through civil disobedience and democratic means enact change. Loving your country and appreciating it does not mean you love the politicians or even the government in its current state. It is because you people don't get any if this that you merely pay lip service to progress and all you end up doing is alienating people and dividing up your country and increasing the number of people who share your hatred for their country except they want to do the opposite of you. > They are always called ungrateful haters...at least until they win. What they are called and what they said and did are different things. Hating your country until you see change is not how democracy works. Perhaps you should learn from immigrants who come to america seeking a better life despite their financial situation and like them find your way to a better life if you think there is one to be found. Your problem is that of perspective. It's usually people who volunteered for a long time in poor countries or military service members who similarly been to those countries that seem to have the perspective I tried to share. A homeless, jobless person in the hood in america has a better quality of life and opportunities than an educated doctor in sub-saharan africa. Forget that, pick a single poor country randomly and and try finding a place where a poor uneducated black gay woman can be treated as a human being to begin with right along find jobs (good ones), be able to actually buy goods with money, be safe and be treated with a semblance of fairness in the work place. That rules out most of asia and easern europe. Maybe south africa (if considered poor),maybe some south american countries but that rules out the jobs and opportunities being good (perhaps brazil? But even then their black people are having an even harder time than american counterparts). I have many comments about all the things that need changing in america far beyond what you listed. But every single one is because I think this amazing country is worth working on and improving not because I don't like america. And funnily, people have the opposite response to me thinking perhaps I should find another home. Perhaps it is our perspective that is different not what we believe needs changing.

amadeuspagel 3y ago

Isn't Joe Rogan italian? How can someone be in a WASP bubble when they listen to Joe Rogan?

nebula8804 3y ago
You are right, maybe we need a new term to describe upper middle class white American detached from the rest of the problems occurring in the country. Frankly, he should know better having started his early years in Newark, NJ and occasionally being on welfare.

Levitz 3y ago

>This sounds entirely ripped off from a Joe Rogan podcast. Sounds like you are in the WASP bubble. You likely haven't experienced living in the hood, having to be treated like a Muslim in the US, having to deal with MAGA people bitching about your existence as a Mexican migrant and many other scenarios. Yet African Americans are WAY better off than those in Africa, and Muslims and Mexicans migrate to the US for better conditions.There is plenty to improve in the US, sure, but it's a better place than the majority of the world, why on the world do you think people go there in the first place? Hell the US is outstanding precisely when it comes to racism, do you have any idea of how racist people are in Asia? Africa? Even Europe?

nebula8804 3y ago
>There is plenty to improve in the US, sure, but it's a better place than the majority of the world, why on the world do you think people go there in the first place? Its a desirable place to go to place BECAUSE of prior generations rebelling against the status quo. When the Civil Rights Act was being debated, there was a push by the south to "not go too fast". The argument by the south in 1965 was that African Americans should be grateful that we have "separate but equal" and "look how far we have come from slavery"? [1]:https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/integration-moved-fast-many-americans-according-1965-poll https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/integration-moved-fast-m... We are experiencing the same nonsense today. Frankly I don't think we would have as many immigrants as we do if it weren't for all of these achievements that immigrants can take advantage of on day 1. As a child of immigrants I see a common tendency of immigrants in my communities to not rock the boat. In fact Trump has stated that he will consider deporting any immigrants who express support for Palestine. They effectively have this sword of Damocles hanging over them their entire lives. Now you could argue that since they are 'citizens' they have the full suite of rights as anyone else. They only have those rights until someone decides to test the limits and then they don't anymore. The children of immigrants born in the country have a very different outlook. They don't have the same mentality to not want to rock the boat. They are the ones who push major reform.