4 ms·

Second person pronouns are so fascinating! Not only is "you" the formal, polite plural form, but calling someone "thou" was also seen as so informal as to be r

Second person pronouns are so fascinating! Not only is "you" the formal, polite plural form, but calling someone "thou" was also seen as so informal as to be rude (in verb form, to "thou" someone). This has a modern equivalent in the term "tutoyer" in French. https://www.etymonline.com/word/thou https://www.etymonline.com/word/thou An interesting counterpoint is the usage in Japanese of sarcastically polite forms like お前 and 貴様, where you use a pronoun with a surface meaning of extreme respect, as a form of insult.

Geisterde 3y ago
Shipmate is used to describe someone who you crew a ship with, such as in the navy, and is supposed to convey comradery. E xcept in its real world use, where its the social equivalent of referring to someone as "s**head".
- mgbmtl 3y ago
  I guess like "comrade", any kind of imposed social norm becomes an object of satire?
  - Geisterde 3y ago
    I think so, I remember a joke bill burr made about any term used to describe the mentally underdeveloped will inevitably be used satirically.
- javajosh 3y ago
  Interesting. I wonder if the similarity of the words "ship" and "shit" contributed to the development. Out of curiosity, what is the non-pejorative replacement for shipmate?
  - Geisterde 3y ago
    Just common english slang, bro, dude, whatevers on their nametag or a first name/nickname if they have one; nothing dissimilar to civilian life and I think thats largely the point, even last names are commonly referred to as "slave names". Formal speech is all ranks, "hey chief", "yes petty officer".
christophilus 3y ago
The US south still uses ma’am and sir as polite forms of address, but it’s also often used sarcastically (where the ma’am or sir is exaggerated: “Well, yes, MA’am!”)
- bigstrat2003 3y ago
  That seems to be true across the country (it's been the case everywhere I've been, at least).
pavlov 3y ago
Interestingly the formality ladder flips at the very top of the hierarchy. Kings and popes must be addressed diffusely with plurals and layered references to official status (“Your Imperial Majesty”), but the Christian God above them is a “thou” in every European language. (Useless trivia bit… Apparently Emperor Charles V invented the styling of “His Majesty”. Before him, kings and emperors were addressed as highnesses, but he wanted something fancier after being crowned as the Holy Roman Emperor in addition to the kingships he already held.)
- 082349872349872 3y ago
  That's because the english notion of informal/formal is a poor fit for the modern, symmetric use of T-V. It's more of a social distance, with V-form for people outside the personal sphere, and T-form for people outside the public sphere. So, as an atheist, I'd use V-form* with the Christian God, but His Believers really ought to be using T-form with Him. * Si vous plaît, j'aimerais bien savior comment fonctionne la turbulence ... mais ne vous inquiétez pas si l'explication serait trop compliqué !
  - School-Cotton 3y ago
    La turbulence ?
    - 082349872349872 3y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbulence#Kolmogorov's_theory_of_1941 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbulence#Kolmogorov's_theory... see also https://www.newscientist.com/letter/mg12416936-800-letter-last-word/ https://www.newscientist.com/letter/mg12416936-800-letter-la... (but the way I heard the joke is that the scientist has planned to ask Him how to resolve gravitation with quantum mechanics, and only then the bystanders inquire, why not ask about turbulence?)
- euroderf 3y ago
  > Kings and popes must be addressed diffusely with plurals So I guess "the royal 'We'" falls under "believing your own marketing".
selimthegrim 3y ago
See also https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/yeten#Middle_English https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/yeten#Middle_English (Etymology 2), where ye (and yeet[!]) were its descendants (to ye someone was a thing as well)
rayiner 3y ago
That’s fascinating. In Bangla, “thui” is the very informal second person pronoun (like what am older sibling would say to a younger sibling).
pm215 3y ago
There seems to be a certain amount of "euphemism treadmill" in Japanese pronouns, where they start off polite and drift downward in acceptability to be replaced by new ones. I have a grammar book from 1906 ("Hossfeld’s Japanese Grammar") which effectively documents some of that drift: for second person pronouns, apparently you could still get away with “addressing inferiors familiarly” with ‘kisama’ in 1906, so it hadn't yet dropped to the insult level it has now. ‘nushi’ is also listed, glossed ‘contemptuous’, and I don't think anybody uses 'nushi' as an insult today. ‘Anata’ and ‘omae’ are the 1906 recommended pronouns.
- yongjik 3y ago
  Korean also suffers from similar issues, where it's a bit more ridiculous: the textbook version of "polite" 2nd singular pronoun ("dangsin") has fallen so low that it's pretty much an insult now, and no other term has taken its place. As a result, modern Korean arguably does not have a polite 2nd person singular pronoun. We somehow make do - it helps that Korean allows just omitting pronoun when the context is clear (same as Japanese).
- cyphar 3y ago
  主(nushi) has wrapped back around to being more on the polite side, though I get the impression it's used more by older people. There's also phrases like 持ち主(mochi-nushi -- person who is a holder of something) that have ossified the pronoun so it probably won't go away entirely for a while. I think the reason for the rotation of pronouns is because people start using them sarcastically which means it's no longer seen as respectful, and so new pronouns become necessary.

Geisterde 3y ago

Shipmate is used to describe someone who you crew a ship with, such as in the navy, and is supposed to convey comradery. E xcept in its real world use, where its the social equivalent of referring to someone as "s**head".

mgbmtl 3y ago
I guess like "comrade", any kind of imposed social norm becomes an object of satire?
- Geisterde 3y ago
  I think so, I remember a joke bill burr made about any term used to describe the mentally underdeveloped will inevitably be used satirically.
javajosh 3y ago
Interesting. I wonder if the similarity of the words "ship" and "shit" contributed to the development. Out of curiosity, what is the non-pejorative replacement for shipmate?
- Geisterde 3y ago
  Just common english slang, bro, dude, whatevers on their nametag or a first name/nickname if they have one; nothing dissimilar to civilian life and I think thats largely the point, even last names are commonly referred to as "slave names". Formal speech is all ranks, "hey chief", "yes petty officer".

christophilus 3y ago

The US south still uses ma’am and sir as polite forms of address, but it’s also often used sarcastically (where the ma’am or sir is exaggerated: “Well, yes, MA’am!”)

bigstrat2003 3y ago
That seems to be true across the country (it's been the case everywhere I've been, at least).

pavlov 3y ago

Interestingly the formality ladder flips at the very top of the hierarchy. Kings and popes must be addressed diffusely with plurals and layered references to official status (“Your Imperial Majesty”), but the Christian God above them is a “thou” in every European language. (Useless trivia bit… Apparently Emperor Charles V invented the styling of “His Majesty”. Before him, kings and emperors were addressed as highnesses, but he wanted something fancier after being crowned as the Holy Roman Emperor in addition to the kingships he already held.)

082349872349872 3y ago
That's because the english notion of informal/formal is a poor fit for the modern, symmetric use of T-V. It's more of a social distance, with V-form for people outside the personal sphere, and T-form for people outside the public sphere. So, as an atheist, I'd use V-form* with the Christian God, but His Believers really ought to be using T-form with Him. * Si vous plaît, j'aimerais bien savior comment fonctionne la turbulence ... mais ne vous inquiétez pas si l'explication serait trop compliqué !
- School-Cotton 3y ago
  La turbulence ?
  - 082349872349872 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbulence#Kolmogorov's_theory_of_1941 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbulence#Kolmogorov's_theory... see also https://www.newscientist.com/letter/mg12416936-800-letter-last-word/ https://www.newscientist.com/letter/mg12416936-800-letter-la... (but the way I heard the joke is that the scientist has planned to ask Him how to resolve gravitation with quantum mechanics, and only then the bystanders inquire, why not ask about turbulence?)
euroderf 3y ago
> Kings and popes must be addressed diffusely with plurals So I guess "the royal 'We'" falls under "believing your own marketing".

selimthegrim 3y ago

See also https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/yeten#Middle_English https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/yeten#Middle_English (Etymology 2), where ye (and yeet[!]) were its descendants (to ye someone was a thing as well)

rayiner 3y ago

That’s fascinating. In Bangla, “thui” is the very informal second person pronoun (like what am older sibling would say to a younger sibling).

pm215 3y ago

There seems to be a certain amount of "euphemism treadmill" in Japanese pronouns, where they start off polite and drift downward in acceptability to be replaced by new ones. I have a grammar book from 1906 ("Hossfeld’s Japanese Grammar") which effectively documents some of that drift: for second person pronouns, apparently you could still get away with “addressing inferiors familiarly” with ‘kisama’ in 1906, so it hadn't yet dropped to the insult level it has now. ‘nushi’ is also listed, glossed ‘contemptuous’, and I don't think anybody uses 'nushi' as an insult today. ‘Anata’ and ‘omae’ are the 1906 recommended pronouns.

yongjik 3y ago
Korean also suffers from similar issues, where it's a bit more ridiculous: the textbook version of "polite" 2nd singular pronoun ("dangsin") has fallen so low that it's pretty much an insult now, and no other term has taken its place. As a result, modern Korean arguably does not have a polite 2nd person singular pronoun. We somehow make do - it helps that Korean allows just omitting pronoun when the context is clear (same as Japanese).
cyphar 3y ago
主(nushi) has wrapped back around to being more on the polite side, though I get the impression it's used more by older people. There's also phrases like 持ち主(mochi-nushi -- person who is a holder of something) that have ossified the pronoun so it probably won't go away entirely for a while. I think the reason for the rotation of pronouns is because people start using them sarcastically which means it's no longer seen as respectful, and so new pronouns become necessary.