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I had never until just now considered the possibility that “you” might be the thorn misprint of “thou”, just like how in “ye olde shoppe” was (according to lege
by dahart 3y ago
I had never until just now considered the possibility that “you” might be the thorn misprint of “thou”, just like how in “ye olde shoppe” was (according to legend) pronounced “the old shop” because Y got used in printing presses as a stand-in for the thorn “Þ” character they didn’t have, that looks kinda-sorta like a Y.
Seems like the answers suggest I’m just imagining something that didn’t happen, but it was a fun thought.
- jjtheblunt 3y agoEth is the character you’re thinking if, not thorn. Eth has voice on and thorn voice off.
- dahart 3y agoThis says it really was thorn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ye_olde#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ye_olde#History Ð/ð (eth) certainly is the voiced th in Old English and modern Icelandic. I’m not sure why thorn was being used for ‘the’.
- n_plus_1_acc 3y agoAFAIK thorn and eth were used in free variation, as there is rarely any possibility of confusion.
- jjtheblunt 3y agoI would recommend consulting Prokosh Comparative Germanic Grammar. It’s a very old reference and may not be online, but what my germanic linguistics professor used with us Germanic linguistics grad students. He was a world renowned expert on the various futhark versions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_H._Antonsen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_H._Antonsen
- jjtheblunt 3y agoProkosch's book is still available https://a.co/d/0u4S28Y https://a.co/d/0u4S28Y
- blown_gasket 3y agoI'm not huge on taking the Wikipedia entry at face value and prefer to look at the references used for the entry. In this case the reference CHAPTER 25 TYPOGRAPHY AND THE PRINTED ENGLISH TEXT, page 6, does mention that y/ye was used in place of both eth and thorn.
- jjtheblunt 3y agoMispelling or incomplete font set for printing press possibly? Note modern English collapsed the distinction into simpler orthography, “th” for both eth and thorn, so simplicity in spelling certainly happens.
- nicole_express 3y agoThe eth/thorn distinction was fairly arbitrary in actual written Old English, with thorn being more common. The modern distinction between eth and thorn being based off of voice originated in Icelandic, I think? That's the only language that still uses them in its modern form, anyways.
- jjtheblunt 3y agoIcelandic preserves old Norse so you’re accidentally implying Old Norse originated in its own derivative.
- nicole_express 3y agoI admit I'm only going off of Wikipedia, but that claims (in the "Old Norse" article) that extant writings from that period used thorn exclusively, and again the use of thorn and eth as the unvoiced and voiced variants is a relatively modern convention.
- Symmetry 3y agoI believe it was a stand in for yᷤ instead of Þ, which is a much smaller leap.
- qingcharles 3y agoYour first unicode character won't render in Windows. þ? I can see it is LATIN SMALL LETTER Y + COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER S .. not sure what that ligature is, though. My knowledge of old English is very lacking :)
- mh- 3y agoit's a lowercase y with an s over it, like you would see a diacritic rendered. never seen it before. edit: it shows up in the "descendants" list on the side of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn_(letter) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn_(letter)
- LAC-Tech 3y agoThat seems unlikely. From wiktionary: From Middle English you, yow, ȝow (object case of ye), from Old English ēow (“you”, dative case of ġē), from Proto-Germanic iwwiz (“you”, dative case of jīz), Western form of izwiz (“you”, dative case of jūz), from Proto-Indo-European yūs (“you”, plural), yū́. Gutenbergs printing press was the mid 15th century, well into the Middle English era.
- kevin_thibedeau 3y agoEnglish has a second person pronoun ye which is unrelated to the orthographic transformation of definite article the into ye. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ye_(pronoun) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ye_(pronoun)
- twarge 3y agoI went to school in the 90's with a wonderful person who grew up Lancaster Quaker and regularly had to suppress speaking to Professors with Thou and Thine. Lost the habit really quickly, but it was charming and very real.