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Right, but the point was you don't need on-page analytics for that. Seeing what people read (and when, and from where) is already in your self-hosted server log

Right, but the point was you don't need on-page analytics for that. Seeing what people read (and when, and from where) is already in your self-hosted server logs, or is one "enable server logs" setting away.

satvikpendem 3y ago
How can you know what they've read inside an article? Sometimes I'll embed Hotjar and similar services into my site just to see the heatmap of what people have mouses over or text selected. Still looking for an open source self hosted version though.
- crtasm 3y ago
  This to me is intrusive and creepy. Glad I can block Hotjar easily and do not wish to have to check for self-hosted scripts doing it.
  - satvikpendem 3y ago
    Not sure you can block self hosted Hotjar type scripts if I just embed them into the JS bundle itself for the site. You could try disabling JS but most people won't, and I could also disallow text being rendered if there's no JS. Not that I would do any of this of course, since I like no JS sites as well as SEO for my blog posts, but it's a hypothetical of what one could potentially do.
    - crtasm 3y ago
      Blocking XHR requests by default would probably be a good start before 1st party JS. I already default to blocking 3rd party content.
      - satvikpendem 3y ago
        That's true, depends on the kind of blog though, and whether it's a SPA or not.
- mortallywounded 3y ago
  Because hotjar and other such things are incredibly invasive?
  - satvikpendem 3y ago
    Well, it's my site and I can host whatever (legal) content I want on it, it's akin to having cameras in my store. Similarly, people can choose not to visit the site.
    - mortallywounded 3y ago
      Or more likely, all of your cameras disabled by ublock.
      - satvikpendem 3y ago
        It actually would be quite difficult for adblockers to block 1st party scripts if I just embed the tracking into my JS bundle. At that point the adblocker would have to deobfuscate the code and block selective parts of the JS.
        mortallywounded 3y ago
        Only if you self host or proxy all of the tracking requests. Otherwise, the tracking will occur but get trapped in the browser. The moment your code tries to send the request to hotjar or any other domain, it's blocked.
        satvikpendem 3y ago
        Yes, hence why I said in my initial comment that I'm looking for a self hosted version, mostly because Hotjar is bloated and has unnecessary amounts of extraneous JS that slows down the page.
    - crtasm 3y ago
      Embedding intrusive tracking code that is invisible to the average user is not akin to a visible camera in a store, at all.
- TheRealPomax 3y ago
  A far better question is: what does knowing let you do? Does it tell you how to be a better writer? Not really. Does it tell you want people want to read? Also not really, because you have no way to separate the "people spending time on a paragraph because it's high quality information" from "people spending time on a paragraph because it'll make for a good tweet quote". If you care about your writing, then your aim is for people to read your whole post, not just parts of it. And you might think you want to know how much time people spent on your page (i.e. what your bump rate is) but even that tells you nothing: what are you going to do with that information? And that's not rhetorical: do you actually work on your writing based on whether people scroll past the fold? Because if you do, I'd love to hear what your workflow around that is. Unless you're trying to monetize your readership through ad placements, analytics like these are a little lie we like to tell ourselves matter, when really they don't. They're nice to look at, but eye candy isn't a good enough reason to run tracking and behavioral profiling on a blog.
  - satvikpendem 3y ago
    From the initial parent comment which also serves as my answer to your question: > And much like profiling any program I’ve written, the hotspot is always something different from what I’d have expected. Having analytics doesn’t change what I write. I still enjoy the information. I like seeing the hotspot so I know what to focus on in the future. It's really no different than in startups, let's say you build features A, B, and C, but most people are focusing on C, knowing that info ensures you better serve your users. For a blog, your user is your reader. You might say server level analytics might work, but just as in startups, it assumes that there is only one feature (or for blogs, only one idea) per page. Hence, intra-page analytics can be useful.
kstrauser 3y ago
Thing is, with Matomo you can use on-page analytics and server logs. That’s what I do. If I’ve gone through all the trouble of setting it up, feeding logs into it, and making it viewable, it’s practically no extra work to add the on-page stuff. There’s no drawback to adding that bit of JS, even if it only adds a little bit of extra information.

satvikpendem 3y ago

How can you know what they've read inside an article? Sometimes I'll embed Hotjar and similar services into my site just to see the heatmap of what people have mouses over or text selected. Still looking for an open source self hosted version though.

crtasm 3y ago
This to me is intrusive and creepy. Glad I can block Hotjar easily and do not wish to have to check for self-hosted scripts doing it.
- satvikpendem 3y ago
  Not sure you can block self hosted Hotjar type scripts if I just embed them into the JS bundle itself for the site. You could try disabling JS but most people won't, and I could also disallow text being rendered if there's no JS. Not that I would do any of this of course, since I like no JS sites as well as SEO for my blog posts, but it's a hypothetical of what one could potentially do.
  - crtasm 3y ago
    Blocking XHR requests by default would probably be a good start before 1st party JS. I already default to blocking 3rd party content.
    - satvikpendem 3y ago
      That's true, depends on the kind of blog though, and whether it's a SPA or not.
mortallywounded 3y ago
Because hotjar and other such things are incredibly invasive?
- satvikpendem 3y ago
  Well, it's my site and I can host whatever (legal) content I want on it, it's akin to having cameras in my store. Similarly, people can choose not to visit the site.
  - mortallywounded 3y ago
    Or more likely, all of your cameras disabled by ublock.
    - satvikpendem 3y ago
      It actually would be quite difficult for adblockers to block 1st party scripts if I just embed the tracking into my JS bundle. At that point the adblocker would have to deobfuscate the code and block selective parts of the JS.
      - mortallywounded 3y ago
        Only if you self host or proxy all of the tracking requests. Otherwise, the tracking will occur but get trapped in the browser. The moment your code tries to send the request to hotjar or any other domain, it's blocked.
        satvikpendem 3y ago
        Yes, hence why I said in my initial comment that I'm looking for a self hosted version, mostly because Hotjar is bloated and has unnecessary amounts of extraneous JS that slows down the page.
  - crtasm 3y ago
    Embedding intrusive tracking code that is invisible to the average user is not akin to a visible camera in a store, at all.
TheRealPomax 3y ago
A far better question is: what does knowing let you do? Does it tell you how to be a better writer? Not really. Does it tell you want people want to read? Also not really, because you have no way to separate the "people spending time on a paragraph because it's high quality information" from "people spending time on a paragraph because it'll make for a good tweet quote". If you care about your writing, then your aim is for people to read your whole post, not just parts of it. And you might think you want to know how much time people spent on your page (i.e. what your bump rate is) but even that tells you nothing: what are you going to do with that information? And that's not rhetorical: do you actually work on your writing based on whether people scroll past the fold? Because if you do, I'd love to hear what your workflow around that is. Unless you're trying to monetize your readership through ad placements, analytics like these are a little lie we like to tell ourselves matter, when really they don't. They're nice to look at, but eye candy isn't a good enough reason to run tracking and behavioral profiling on a blog.
- satvikpendem 3y ago
  From the initial parent comment which also serves as my answer to your question: > And much like profiling any program I’ve written, the hotspot is always something different from what I’d have expected. Having analytics doesn’t change what I write. I still enjoy the information. I like seeing the hotspot so I know what to focus on in the future. It's really no different than in startups, let's say you build features A, B, and C, but most people are focusing on C, knowing that info ensures you better serve your users. For a blog, your user is your reader. You might say server level analytics might work, but just as in startups, it assumes that there is only one feature (or for blogs, only one idea) per page. Hence, intra-page analytics can be useful.

kstrauser 3y ago

Thing is, with Matomo you can use on-page analytics and server logs. That’s what I do. If I’ve gone through all the trouble of setting it up, feeding logs into it, and making it viewable, it’s practically no extra work to add the on-page stuff. There’s no drawback to adding that bit of JS, even if it only adds a little bit of extra information.