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I think you grant protesters far too much common sense. What i'm saying isn't theoretical : as a recent example, here in paris a feminist movement protesting in
by bsaul 3y ago
I think you grant protesters far too much common sense. What i'm saying isn't theoretical : as a recent example, here in paris a feminist movement protesting in support of palestinians women under bombing explicitly rejected from the march women that came to protest against the raping of israelis women ( and hostages ).
Another recent example in Paris as well is the number of people removing "free the hostages" posters in the streets.
And i won't even mention twitter..
This isn't something i've imagined, it's the sad reality. Those people are actively hostile to israelis even if that means supporting the most terrible atrocities commited by hamas.
- ethanbond 3y agoOkay let’s take the protest example. There are a few possible explanations. 1. These protestors are actually pro raping Israelis 2. These protestors want a single, specific priority for the protest they organized And you believe not just that (1) is more likely, but that there’s so little possibility of (2) that you can just discard their entire perspective and accuse them of supporting rape of Israelis without even asking them? What if a group of men’s rights activists showed up advocating for the men under bombardment? Would the protestors have been wrong to exclude them? Maybe! Arguably! But would their excluding those men’s rights activists have indicated that they are positively “okay with” or perhaps even supportive of the men of Gaza dying? Absolutely not. That just seems blatantly dishonest. You don’t have the information you think you have. To be clear: there are people who have the beliefs you’re talking about. Obviously (October 7th speaks for itself). I just think those people are far fewer than you’re perceiving, and it is absolutely necessary for people to be engaging with good criticisms on complex issues like this one with so many lives at stake.
- bsaul 3y agoI believe 3/ those people are caught in their own self contradictions. They hate israel so much that they're actually sorting between women that got killed for the wrong reasons and women that got killed and raped because they somehow deserved it. Which is an absolutely horrible stance for a feminist organization. But that's where ideology leads to.
- ethanbond 3y agoDid they say that? Or are you just assuming?
- bsaul 3y agoNow of course they're never going to say it out loud (hence the hypocrisy). But that's the only logical conclusion for them never organizing anything for the women that got raped and murdered on oct 7, and rejecting the ones that did. Do you see any other explanation ?
- ethanbond 3y agoWhat about their failure to organize a protest for the women of Ukraine? Or the women of Darfur? Or what about for the men in Gaza? This is not a rhetorical question. I am curious what you make of this. What do you “know” about their opinions based on their failures to organize such demonstrations?
- bsaul 3y agoThe fact that the israeli-arab conflict in general triggers extraordinary responses in the public opinion is another issue. i don't have any definitive answer on that. The troubling part is that women are killed almost the same day in the same region, in the same conflict, and i'd even say only the israli ones got targeted as women on purpose and raped. And yet they chose to protest exclusively for the other side.
- ethanbond 3y ago> i don’t have any definitive answer on that You should consider asking a few people and actually listening to their answers instead of accusing them of being pro-rape for failing to mention your topics of choice in the same breath. A lot of people end up with beliefs and attitudes by sheer inertia of those around them and will accordingly have bad answers. Some people don’t though, and they’re the ones who you can both teach and learn from. Thus back to my original point: look for the strong versions of the argument.