4 ms·

We don't pay? We paid like 40 cents per kwh im late 2022, vs 26 cents in Sweden. Feel free to blame whoever, but German end consumers are probably not to blame.

ffgjgf1 3y ago
> but German end consumers are probably not to blame. If they overlap with the German voters who voted for Merkel and especially Schroder (who literally became an agent working for the Russian government after he left office) before that then we can certainly blame them.
- oezi 3y ago
  Certainly mistakes were made, but please recall that it is primarily market forces which led us to the German gas dependence. Russian gas was just cheaper than American and Qatari gas.
  - ffgjgf1 3y ago
    There were other options than gas.
    - oezi 3y ago
      Cheaper ones?
      - ffgjgf1 3y ago
        No, of course not. The whole problem is because they just with the cheapest option (also outright unambiguous corruption in Schroder’s case) and ignored any issues that might have longterm
hurril 3y ago
We pay that and more because both Germany and Sweden decided that nuclear power is a bad idea. You would pay even more if we weren't selling, which in a sense would be more fair because then you would bear the consequences of your own actions. Downvote me all you want, dear germans.
- Klinky 3y ago
  They would pay more if there were fewer market options, but there aren't, so not sure your point.
  - hurril 3y ago
    -Who would pay more for what?- Re-read. That isn't why in the slightest. It isn't about the number of alternatives, it's entirely to do with the cost of producing electricity for the different alternatives. When there's plenty of wind, then wind power is obviously cheap. Sometimes running into the negative, as in: we get paid to use it. This causes _everyone_ to lose money. When there's no wind in large areas, industry power draw (which is most of it by a wide margin), means that something else has to produce the missing energy. If too little electrical energy is produced, the entire grid breaks down, so there's a scuttle to either disconnect sub-nets or add more production. The production that is added is more expensive. This sets the market price.
- oezi 3y ago
  Nuclear is a bad idea, period. There are less than 20 new reactors in planning in the entire western world and their cost and timeline overruns show that nuclear is a losing ticket. The quicker we transition to renewable + battery, the better. I am sorry that Germans (or should we say Putin's war?) caused higher prices for Swedes, but all studies I have seen show great benefits of the European unified grid for consumer prices.
  - hurril 3y ago
    Nuclear is the least bad idea and electricity prices have nothing to do with Putin's war. But sure, you are right that nuclear is very expensive but it doesn't have to be that way; plus: there are a lot of countries changing their minds here at this point. I am not against renewables, I am for keeping our senses. An example of something that just isn't sensible: Fueling my electric car with energy derived from coal, stored in batteries basically built by satan. (Read about the mines.) For decades, we stopped developing nuclear power because of confused environmental groups. (And against: I am not a coal thumper and definitely a green person!) Electricity prices have basically increased five-fold at least, here. And it gets worse every years. When the wind stops, we run coal, oil and gas plants here that are extremely expensive and also destroy the environment. Instead of nuclear that we use to have.
hurril 3y ago
We, where I live, regularly pay over 26 Cents. Just last week, every day cost us north of 15 EUR a day on the electric bill, and it's not even _that_ cold yet. Because of a lack of nuclear power that used to be there.

ffgjgf1 3y ago

> but German end consumers are probably not to blame. If they overlap with the German voters who voted for Merkel and especially Schroder (who literally became an agent working for the Russian government after he left office) before that then we can certainly blame them.

oezi 3y ago
Certainly mistakes were made, but please recall that it is primarily market forces which led us to the German gas dependence. Russian gas was just cheaper than American and Qatari gas.
- ffgjgf1 3y ago
  There were other options than gas.
  - oezi 3y ago
    Cheaper ones?
    - ffgjgf1 3y ago
      No, of course not. The whole problem is because they just with the cheapest option (also outright unambiguous corruption in Schroder’s case) and ignored any issues that might have longterm

hurril 3y ago

We pay that and more because both Germany and Sweden decided that nuclear power is a bad idea. You would pay even more if we weren't selling, which in a sense would be more fair because then you would bear the consequences of your own actions. Downvote me all you want, dear germans.

Klinky 3y ago
They would pay more if there were fewer market options, but there aren't, so not sure your point.
- hurril 3y ago
  -Who would pay more for what?- Re-read. That isn't why in the slightest. It isn't about the number of alternatives, it's entirely to do with the cost of producing electricity for the different alternatives. When there's plenty of wind, then wind power is obviously cheap. Sometimes running into the negative, as in: we get paid to use it. This causes _everyone_ to lose money. When there's no wind in large areas, industry power draw (which is most of it by a wide margin), means that something else has to produce the missing energy. If too little electrical energy is produced, the entire grid breaks down, so there's a scuttle to either disconnect sub-nets or add more production. The production that is added is more expensive. This sets the market price.
oezi 3y ago
Nuclear is a bad idea, period. There are less than 20 new reactors in planning in the entire western world and their cost and timeline overruns show that nuclear is a losing ticket. The quicker we transition to renewable + battery, the better. I am sorry that Germans (or should we say Putin's war?) caused higher prices for Swedes, but all studies I have seen show great benefits of the European unified grid for consumer prices.
- hurril 3y ago
  Nuclear is the least bad idea and electricity prices have nothing to do with Putin's war. But sure, you are right that nuclear is very expensive but it doesn't have to be that way; plus: there are a lot of countries changing their minds here at this point. I am not against renewables, I am for keeping our senses. An example of something that just isn't sensible: Fueling my electric car with energy derived from coal, stored in batteries basically built by satan. (Read about the mines.) For decades, we stopped developing nuclear power because of confused environmental groups. (And against: I am not a coal thumper and definitely a green person!) Electricity prices have basically increased five-fold at least, here. And it gets worse every years. When the wind stops, we run coal, oil and gas plants here that are extremely expensive and also destroy the environment. Instead of nuclear that we use to have.

hurril 3y ago

We, where I live, regularly pay over 26 Cents. Just last week, every day cost us north of 15 EUR a day on the electric bill, and it's not even _that_ cold yet. Because of a lack of nuclear power that used to be there.