6 ms·

I agree with your point, however in this case i think it's important to pinpoint the hypocrisy of some people. You can't blame israel for oct 7, ask them to st

by bsaul 3y ago

I agree with your point, however in this case i think it's important to pinpoint the hypocrisy of some people. You can't blame israel for oct 7, ask them to stop their ongoing operations in gaza, not call for the release of hostages, not say a word about the women raped by hamas and gaza civilians, AND pretend to "just want to spare the civilians population". Those people are in practice siding for the hamas, even if they deny it.

ethanbond 3y ago
At the dialogue level, I don’t think it’s practical to require people to give a full accounting of every related topic while speaking on a subject. There are infinite facts that are related to any one fact. Anyone can win any argument by including one more related fact and saying “well without stating your opinion on this I can discard your opinion on that.” We’ll all get nowhere. At the actual substance level, I also don’t think it’s fair or honest to take “silence” on a topic as evidence of support for it. In this particular case, I would bet fewer than 0.00001% of the people you’re arguing with are actually okay with (or supportive of) keeping hostages in Hamas’ custody or raping people. You’re battling a cartoon villain that you drew yourself.
- bsaul 3y ago
  I think you grant protesters far too much common sense. What i'm saying isn't theoretical : as a recent example, here in paris a feminist movement protesting in support of palestinians women under bombing explicitly rejected from the march women that came to protest against the raping of israelis women ( and hostages ). Another recent example in Paris as well is the number of people removing "free the hostages" posters in the streets. And i won't even mention twitter.. This isn't something i've imagined, it's the sad reality. Those people are actively hostile to israelis even if that means supporting the most terrible atrocities commited by hamas.
  - ethanbond 3y ago
    Okay let’s take the protest example. There are a few possible explanations. 1. These protestors are actually pro raping Israelis 2. These protestors want a single, specific priority for the protest they organized And you believe not just that (1) is more likely, but that there’s so little possibility of (2) that you can just discard their entire perspective and accuse them of supporting rape of Israelis without even asking them? What if a group of men’s rights activists showed up advocating for the men under bombardment? Would the protestors have been wrong to exclude them? Maybe! Arguably! But would their excluding those men’s rights activists have indicated that they are positively “okay with” or perhaps even supportive of the men of Gaza dying? Absolutely not. That just seems blatantly dishonest. You don’t have the information you think you have. To be clear: there are people who have the beliefs you’re talking about. Obviously (October 7th speaks for itself). I just think those people are far fewer than you’re perceiving, and it is absolutely necessary for people to be engaging with good criticisms on complex issues like this one with so many lives at stake.
    - bsaul 3y ago
      I believe 3/ those people are caught in their own self contradictions. They hate israel so much that they're actually sorting between women that got killed for the wrong reasons and women that got killed and raped because they somehow deserved it. Which is an absolutely horrible stance for a feminist organization. But that's where ideology leads to.
      - ethanbond 3y ago
        Did they say that? Or are you just assuming?
        bsaul 3y ago
        Now of course they're never going to say it out loud (hence the hypocrisy). But that's the only logical conclusion for them never organizing anything for the women that got raped and murdered on oct 7, and rejecting the ones that did. Do you see any other explanation ?
- Arctic_fly 3y ago
  This argument is logical and I’m glad you laid it out. Stating obvious truths is a good strategy for revealing willfully ignorant posters.
ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
More to the point, Israel can't indiscriminately kill tens of thousands of civilians (including Israeli civilians) and torture civilian hostages while claiming they care about civilian lives, and still remain plausible to the world. Indeed, this hypocrisy is even more important to point out. Do you believe Israeli civilians bear collective guilt for Israel's ongoing war crimes, like you believe Palestinian civilians do?
- bsaul 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
    [flagged]

by bsaul 3y ago

ethanbond 3y ago

At the dialogue level, I don’t think it’s practical to require people to give a full accounting of every related topic while speaking on a subject. There are infinite facts that are related to any one fact. Anyone can win any argument by including one more related fact and saying “well without stating your opinion on this I can discard your opinion on that.” We’ll all get nowhere. At the actual substance level, I also don’t think it’s fair or honest to take “silence” on a topic as evidence of support for it. In this particular case, I would bet fewer than 0.00001% of the people you’re arguing with are actually okay with (or supportive of) keeping hostages in Hamas’ custody or raping people. You’re battling a cartoon villain that you drew yourself.

bsaul 3y ago
I think you grant protesters far too much common sense. What i'm saying isn't theoretical : as a recent example, here in paris a feminist movement protesting in support of palestinians women under bombing explicitly rejected from the march women that came to protest against the raping of israelis women ( and hostages ). Another recent example in Paris as well is the number of people removing "free the hostages" posters in the streets. And i won't even mention twitter.. This isn't something i've imagined, it's the sad reality. Those people are actively hostile to israelis even if that means supporting the most terrible atrocities commited by hamas.
- ethanbond 3y ago
  Okay let’s take the protest example. There are a few possible explanations. 1. These protestors are actually pro raping Israelis 2. These protestors want a single, specific priority for the protest they organized And you believe not just that (1) is more likely, but that there’s so little possibility of (2) that you can just discard their entire perspective and accuse them of supporting rape of Israelis without even asking them? What if a group of men’s rights activists showed up advocating for the men under bombardment? Would the protestors have been wrong to exclude them? Maybe! Arguably! But would their excluding those men’s rights activists have indicated that they are positively “okay with” or perhaps even supportive of the men of Gaza dying? Absolutely not. That just seems blatantly dishonest. You don’t have the information you think you have. To be clear: there are people who have the beliefs you’re talking about. Obviously (October 7th speaks for itself). I just think those people are far fewer than you’re perceiving, and it is absolutely necessary for people to be engaging with good criticisms on complex issues like this one with so many lives at stake.
  - bsaul 3y ago
    I believe 3/ those people are caught in their own self contradictions. They hate israel so much that they're actually sorting between women that got killed for the wrong reasons and women that got killed and raped because they somehow deserved it. Which is an absolutely horrible stance for a feminist organization. But that's where ideology leads to.
    - ethanbond 3y ago
      Did they say that? Or are you just assuming?
      - bsaul 3y ago
        Now of course they're never going to say it out loud (hence the hypocrisy). But that's the only logical conclusion for them never organizing anything for the women that got raped and murdered on oct 7, and rejecting the ones that did. Do you see any other explanation ?
Arctic_fly 3y ago
This argument is logical and I’m glad you laid it out. Stating obvious truths is a good strategy for revealing willfully ignorant posters.

ImPostingOnHN 3y ago

More to the point, Israel can't indiscriminately kill tens of thousands of civilians (including Israeli civilians) and torture civilian hostages while claiming they care about civilian lives, and still remain plausible to the world. Indeed, this hypocrisy is even more important to point out. Do you believe Israeli civilians bear collective guilt for Israel's ongoing war crimes, like you believe Palestinian civilians do?

bsaul 3y ago
[flagged]
- ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
  [flagged]