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This guy Xunzi is mildly modern, even heretic, with respect to the prevailing confucians and taoists, no surprise that he is not better known. See the chapter:

This guy Xunzi is mildly modern, even heretic, with respect to the prevailing confucians and taoists, no surprise that he is not better known. See the chapter: "Proper Use of Terms" (正名 zhēngmíng): A name becomes proper for a situation through conventional usage, but once this is fixed it is improper to deviate from this norm. " Totally an ancient tech blogger

asimpletune 3y ago
Yeah one of the things I love about him is that he takes an idea so far that you can’t tell if it’s actually meant as satire. Humor alone is enough to make him revolutionary.
HuShifang 3y ago
For context, he is reasonably well known -- probably the third most-prominent of the early Confucians (albeit a distant third, after Confucius and Mencius), with partial and complete English translations. But, he was often regarded by Confucians throughout Chinese history warily, because of certain "Legalist" tendencies (which, to put it crudely, were more authoritarian and Machiavellian as well as more legalistic), which were frequently disparaged (but quietly drawn on by pragmatic "statecraft" thinkers). Especially because two of his students, Han Fei and Li Si, were arguably the most (in)famous legalists. That said, I had a teacher years ago from Taiwan who argued that 1) Xunzi was the first full-blown "philosopher" (in the Western sense of offering an epistemology etc and arguing in a logically reasoned way) in Chinese history, and that 2) Xunzi and Zhuangzi were the smartest Chinese thinkers of all time. Years later, I'm not sure she was wrong.
- hmm37 3y ago
  I would actually say that for Confucians, it's Confucius, Mencius then Zhu Xi. Xunzi comes 4th, and was regarded a bit heterodox.
  - HuShifang 3y ago
    Yes, but as I said, I was talking about early Confucians.
    - hmm37 3y ago
      Oh. I missed that. In that case wouldn't Confucius grandson (子思) be higher up? After all he supposedly taught Mencius and wrote the Doctrine of the Mean 中庸, and that work is considered standard reading, while reading Xunzi would have been probably only read when you're already a scholar and mastered pretty much everything else. That said, perhaps the Doctrine of the Mean wasn't considered all that important despite being part of the Book of Rites (礼记), or rather it wasn't considered prominent until around the Song dynasty.
hmm37 3y ago
We can e.g. compare this to something Zhuangzi (a Daoist) stated. 荃者所以在魚，得魚而忘荃蹄者所以在兔，得兔而忘蹄言者所以在意，得意而忘言吾安得忘言之人而與之言哉？ The fish trap exists because of the fish; once you've gotten the fish, you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit; once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning; once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can have a word with him? Although perhaps they are talking about two different things. Moreover, during Spring and Autumn into the Warring states period Confucius was e.g. changing the conventional usage of terms, e.g. what it meant or standards to be a 君子 (noble/gentleman).

asimpletune 3y ago

Yeah one of the things I love about him is that he takes an idea so far that you can’t tell if it’s actually meant as satire. Humor alone is enough to make him revolutionary.

HuShifang 3y ago

For context, he is reasonably well known -- probably the third most-prominent of the early Confucians (albeit a distant third, after Confucius and Mencius), with partial and complete English translations. But, he was often regarded by Confucians throughout Chinese history warily, because of certain "Legalist" tendencies (which, to put it crudely, were more authoritarian and Machiavellian as well as more legalistic), which were frequently disparaged (but quietly drawn on by pragmatic "statecraft" thinkers). Especially because two of his students, Han Fei and Li Si, were arguably the most (in)famous legalists. That said, I had a teacher years ago from Taiwan who argued that 1) Xunzi was the first full-blown "philosopher" (in the Western sense of offering an epistemology etc and arguing in a logically reasoned way) in Chinese history, and that 2) Xunzi and Zhuangzi were the smartest Chinese thinkers of all time. Years later, I'm not sure she was wrong.

hmm37 3y ago
I would actually say that for Confucians, it's Confucius, Mencius then Zhu Xi. Xunzi comes 4th, and was regarded a bit heterodox.
- HuShifang 3y ago
  Yes, but as I said, I was talking about early Confucians.
  - hmm37 3y ago
    Oh. I missed that. In that case wouldn't Confucius grandson (子思) be higher up? After all he supposedly taught Mencius and wrote the Doctrine of the Mean 中庸, and that work is considered standard reading, while reading Xunzi would have been probably only read when you're already a scholar and mastered pretty much everything else. That said, perhaps the Doctrine of the Mean wasn't considered all that important despite being part of the Book of Rites (礼记), or rather it wasn't considered prominent until around the Song dynasty.

hmm37 3y ago

We can e.g. compare this to something Zhuangzi (a Daoist) stated. 荃者所以在魚，得魚而忘荃蹄者所以在兔，得兔而忘蹄言者所以在意，得意而忘言吾安得忘言之人而與之言哉？ The fish trap exists because of the fish; once you've gotten the fish, you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit; once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning; once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can have a word with him? Although perhaps they are talking about two different things. Moreover, during Spring and Autumn into the Warring states period Confucius was e.g. changing the conventional usage of terms, e.g. what it meant or standards to be a 君子 (noble/gentleman).