4 ms·

yes the problem is most likely that a lot of people have become hamas's defenders recently for some uncomprehensible reasons. Like finding them justifications,

by bsaul 3y ago

yes the problem is most likely that a lot of people have become hamas's defenders recently for some uncomprehensible reasons. Like finding them justifications, or supporting them on the ongoing war. It's pretty insane if you think about. I remember some people in the arab world took side for ben laden on 9/11 but this time it's happening in the west too.

faeriechangling 3y ago
I recall PLENTY of "The west deserved 9/11 due to imperialism" sentiments, although not people who actually supported Osama Bin Laden. I see similar sentiments around this war all the time, "Israel deserved this terrorist attack due to imperialism" but again really not much actual support for Hamas.
- bsaul 3y ago
  It's often accompanied by cheerful comments whenever an israeli soldier dies in gaza, killed by hamas. I think it's pretty clear those people are on the terrorists side on this war.
  - ethanbond 3y ago
    Like most arguments in controversial topics, there are good versions of the argument and bad ones. It behooves everyone not to use the bad arguments to outright dismiss the good ones.
    - bsaul 3y ago
      I agree with your point, however in this case i think it's important to pinpoint the hypocrisy of some people. You can't blame israel for oct 7, ask them to stop their ongoing operations in gaza, not call for the release of hostages, not say a word about the women raped by hamas and gaza civilians, AND pretend to "just want to spare the civilians population". Those people are in practice siding for the hamas, even if they deny it.
      - ethanbond 3y ago
        At the dialogue level, I don’t think it’s practical to require people to give a full accounting of every related topic while speaking on a subject. There are infinite facts that are related to any one fact. Anyone can win any argument by including one more related fact and saying “well without stating your opinion on this I can discard your opinion on that.” We’ll all get nowhere. At the actual substance level, I also don’t think it’s fair or honest to take “silence” on a topic as evidence of support for it. In this particular case, I would bet fewer than 0.00001% of the people you’re arguing with are actually okay with (or supportive of) keeping hostages in Hamas’ custody or raping people. You’re battling a cartoon villain that you drew yourself.
        bsaul 3y ago
        I think you grant protesters far too much common sense. What i'm saying isn't theoretical : as a recent example, here in paris a feminist movement protesting in support of palestinians women under bombing explicitly rejected from the march women that came to protest against the raping of israelis women ( and hostages ). Another recent example in Paris as well is the number of people removing "free the hostages" posters in the streets. And i won't even mention twitter.. This isn't something i've imagined, it's the sad reality. Those people are actively hostile to israelis even if that means supporting the most terrible atrocities commited by hamas.
        ethanbond 3y ago
        Okay let’s take the protest example. There are a few possible explanations. 1. These protestors are actually pro raping Israelis 2. These protestors want a single, specific priority for the protest they organized And you believe not just that (1) is more likely, but that there’s so little possibility of (2) that you can just discard their entire perspective and accuse them of supporting rape of Israelis without even asking them? What if a group of men’s rights activists showed up advocating for the men under bombardment? Would the protestors have been wrong to exclude them? Maybe! Arguably! But would their excluding those men’s rights activists have indicated that they are positively “okay with” or perhaps even supportive of the men of Gaza dying? Absolutely not. That just seems blatantly dishonest. You don’t have the information you think you have. To be clear: there are people who have the beliefs you’re talking about. Obviously (October 7th speaks for itself). I just think those people are far fewer than you’re perceiving, and it is absolutely necessary for people to be engaging with good criticisms on complex issues like this one with so many lives at stake.
  - faeriechangling 3y ago
    I think the sentiment is more that Israel fucked around and found out. It’s less that Hamas is good and more that Hamas was inevitable given Israel’s conduct. Back from that time, George W Bush literally said you are either with us or you are with the terrorists, so I feel people are pretty inoculated against allegations that they are supporting the terrorists if they don’t support the military force fighting terrorists. The “America deserved 9/11” crowd generally believes Bin Laden did 9/11 to provoke the Americans into attacking so as to create more terrorists and weaken America. This was supported by how the GWOT kept creating more terrorists after every new counter insurgency operation. This isn’t maybe, a totally unbiased way to see things, but the point is that the sentiment generally isn’t “Hamas is great because they kill the IDF”, the sentiment is more commonly “Screw that soldier, they’re a pawn that is playing into the hands of Hamas”.
mpweiher 3y ago
> a lot of people have become hamas's defenders recently for some uncomprehensible reasons Jonathan Haidt explains: Why Antisemitism Sprouted So Quickly on Campus https://www.afterbabel.com/p/antisemitism-on-campus https://www.afterbabel.com/p/antisemitism-on-campus The interesting thing is that the explanation largely preceded these events, he and Greg Lukianoff documented this in their 2018 book The Coddling of the American Mind.
cultofmetatron 3y ago
> yes the problem is most likely that a lot of people have become hamas's defenders recently for some incomprehensible reasons. when the "good guys" indiscriminately kill over 15000 children in the span of two months, I dunno what you expect but its certainly not "uncomprehensible"
- selfmodruntime 3y ago
  These are the realities of war. There are no good guys in war.
  - cultofmetatron 3y ago
    by that logic, hamas aren't the bad guys either. hamas is lambasted as a terrorist origanization because they dont' differentiate between military targets and civilians. the IDF seems to make no distinction either yet we dont' call them for what they are. I wonder why that is
  - Arctic_fly 3y ago
    > These are the realities of war. The proportion of civilian casualties in Israel’s invasion of Gaza is not normal for the 21st century, and indicates a below-average regard for civilian life. https://www.axios.com/2023/11/27/gaza-civilian-deaths-israel-conflict-zones https://www.axios.com/2023/11/27/gaza-civilian-deaths-israel...

by bsaul 3y ago

faeriechangling 3y ago

I recall PLENTY of "The west deserved 9/11 due to imperialism" sentiments, although not people who actually supported Osama Bin Laden. I see similar sentiments around this war all the time, "Israel deserved this terrorist attack due to imperialism" but again really not much actual support for Hamas.

bsaul 3y ago
It's often accompanied by cheerful comments whenever an israeli soldier dies in gaza, killed by hamas. I think it's pretty clear those people are on the terrorists side on this war.
- ethanbond 3y ago
  Like most arguments in controversial topics, there are good versions of the argument and bad ones. It behooves everyone not to use the bad arguments to outright dismiss the good ones.
  - bsaul 3y ago
    I agree with your point, however in this case i think it's important to pinpoint the hypocrisy of some people. You can't blame israel for oct 7, ask them to stop their ongoing operations in gaza, not call for the release of hostages, not say a word about the women raped by hamas and gaza civilians, AND pretend to "just want to spare the civilians population". Those people are in practice siding for the hamas, even if they deny it.
    - ethanbond 3y ago
      At the dialogue level, I don’t think it’s practical to require people to give a full accounting of every related topic while speaking on a subject. There are infinite facts that are related to any one fact. Anyone can win any argument by including one more related fact and saying “well without stating your opinion on this I can discard your opinion on that.” We’ll all get nowhere. At the actual substance level, I also don’t think it’s fair or honest to take “silence” on a topic as evidence of support for it. In this particular case, I would bet fewer than 0.00001% of the people you’re arguing with are actually okay with (or supportive of) keeping hostages in Hamas’ custody or raping people. You’re battling a cartoon villain that you drew yourself.
      - bsaul 3y ago
        I think you grant protesters far too much common sense. What i'm saying isn't theoretical : as a recent example, here in paris a feminist movement protesting in support of palestinians women under bombing explicitly rejected from the march women that came to protest against the raping of israelis women ( and hostages ). Another recent example in Paris as well is the number of people removing "free the hostages" posters in the streets. And i won't even mention twitter.. This isn't something i've imagined, it's the sad reality. Those people are actively hostile to israelis even if that means supporting the most terrible atrocities commited by hamas.
        ethanbond 3y ago
        Okay let’s take the protest example. There are a few possible explanations. 1. These protestors are actually pro raping Israelis 2. These protestors want a single, specific priority for the protest they organized And you believe not just that (1) is more likely, but that there’s so little possibility of (2) that you can just discard their entire perspective and accuse them of supporting rape of Israelis without even asking them? What if a group of men’s rights activists showed up advocating for the men under bombardment? Would the protestors have been wrong to exclude them? Maybe! Arguably! But would their excluding those men’s rights activists have indicated that they are positively “okay with” or perhaps even supportive of the men of Gaza dying? Absolutely not. That just seems blatantly dishonest. You don’t have the information you think you have. To be clear: there are people who have the beliefs you’re talking about. Obviously (October 7th speaks for itself). I just think those people are far fewer than you’re perceiving, and it is absolutely necessary for people to be engaging with good criticisms on complex issues like this one with so many lives at stake.
- faeriechangling 3y ago
  I think the sentiment is more that Israel fucked around and found out. It’s less that Hamas is good and more that Hamas was inevitable given Israel’s conduct. Back from that time, George W Bush literally said you are either with us or you are with the terrorists, so I feel people are pretty inoculated against allegations that they are supporting the terrorists if they don’t support the military force fighting terrorists. The “America deserved 9/11” crowd generally believes Bin Laden did 9/11 to provoke the Americans into attacking so as to create more terrorists and weaken America. This was supported by how the GWOT kept creating more terrorists after every new counter insurgency operation. This isn’t maybe, a totally unbiased way to see things, but the point is that the sentiment generally isn’t “Hamas is great because they kill the IDF”, the sentiment is more commonly “Screw that soldier, they’re a pawn that is playing into the hands of Hamas”.

mpweiher 3y ago

> a lot of people have become hamas's defenders recently for some uncomprehensible reasons Jonathan Haidt explains: Why Antisemitism Sprouted So Quickly on Campus https://www.afterbabel.com/p/antisemitism-on-campus https://www.afterbabel.com/p/antisemitism-on-campus The interesting thing is that the explanation largely preceded these events, he and Greg Lukianoff documented this in their 2018 book The Coddling of the American Mind.

cultofmetatron 3y ago

> yes the problem is most likely that a lot of people have become hamas's defenders recently for some incomprehensible reasons. when the "good guys" indiscriminately kill over 15000 children in the span of two months, I dunno what you expect but its certainly not "uncomprehensible"

selfmodruntime 3y ago
These are the realities of war. There are no good guys in war.
- cultofmetatron 3y ago
  by that logic, hamas aren't the bad guys either. hamas is lambasted as a terrorist origanization because they dont' differentiate between military targets and civilians. the IDF seems to make no distinction either yet we dont' call them for what they are. I wonder why that is
- Arctic_fly 3y ago
  > These are the realities of war. The proportion of civilian casualties in Israel’s invasion of Gaza is not normal for the 21st century, and indicates a below-average regard for civilian life. https://www.axios.com/2023/11/27/gaza-civilian-deaths-israel-conflict-zones https://www.axios.com/2023/11/27/gaza-civilian-deaths-israel...