5 ms·

This is a lot of anecdotal evidence. And you are touching a lot of different subjects which I don't have time to refute one by one. Examples: 1. Convinction

by tety 3y ago

This is a lot of anecdotal evidence. And you are touching a lot of different subjects which I don't have time to refute one by one. Examples: 1. Convinction rate in Israel is over 90% for the entire population, not just palestinians. This is because different reasons such as preference not to press charges if there is not a very high chance of conviction, plea bargains, etc. 2. Multiple checkpoints - The security situation in the west bank is a reflection of the fact this is an occupied territory which should have been solved in subsequent peace negotiations. This never happened, and the reasons for that rest on both sides, but you have to be honest with yourself if you think the Palestinians did not reject multiple fair peace offers. "Systematically exterminated" - This is an extreme hyperbole.. there are enough historical examples of how systematic exterminations looks like to make this a not serious claim. Just compare the amount of casualties of different middle eastern conflicts to the Israeli-Palestinian one Please try to touch something more concrete than multiple anecdotes which most do not really represent anything similar to an apartheid government.

cultofmetatron 3y ago
> This is a lot of anecdotal evidence. you see enough annectodatal evidence and it starts to become a pattern > And you are touching a lot of different subjects which I don't have time to refute one by one. thats how systematic oppression work. it has many facets and if you're pro israeli, you've only maintained that position by bot reading though the evidence > Convinction rate in Israel is over 90% for the entire population, not just palestinians. fair, but why do palestinians go thougha. seperate miliary court? why are children as young as 10 serving time in military prisons? october 7th was horrible but lets not ignore that it was motivated by people in a desperate situation trying to gain bargaining chips to have their loved ones released. some of those children released from the prisons in exchange for the israeli hostages were as young as 10 at the time of incarceration. "Systematically exterminated" - This is an extreme hyperbole.. no its not. this proves to me you have spent no time watching any of the documentaries exploring this. you wouldn't last a day living in the west bank as a palestinian. Ive seen plenty of videos of settlers shooting down palestinians in cold blood with IDF soldiers doing nothing to stop it. they only step in when palestinians fight back. as an american who studied history, I know enough about the ku klux klan to to know ethnic cleansing when I see it. > Please try to touch something more concrete than multiple anecdotes which most do not really represent anything similar to an apartheid government. I think its obvious that there is no amount of evidence that would meet the bar for you to consider whats going on an apartheid.
- tety 3y ago
  > you see enough annectodatal evidence and it starts to become a pattern Pattern for what? a national conflict is not the same as an apartheid government. We might need to go back to how you define apartheid, because I imagine separate bathrooms mandated by law, and it seems you imagine a national conflict in an occupied territory > thats how systematic oppression work. it has many facets and if you're pro israeli, you've only maintained that position by bot reading though the evidence Sounds a bit ad-hominem > fair, but why do palestinians go thougha. seperate miliary court? why are children as young as 10 serving time in military prisons? october 7th was horrible but lets not ignore that it was motivated by people in a desperate situation trying to gain bargaining chips to have their loved ones released. some of those children released from the prisons in exchange for the israeli hostages were as young as 10 at the time of incarceration. Military courts are how you manage a military occupied territory, I believe this is quite common in international law. Also Palestinians can appeal to the Israeli supreme court, many do and many decisions are overruled. About children as young as 10, I need specifics. Looking at Israeli human rights organizations which I don't think anyone would think are pro-government in any way, there weren't any younger than 14 for the very long while I scrolled (https://www.btselem.org/hebrew/statistics/minors_in_custody https://www.btselem.org/hebrew/statistics/minors_in_custody). The difference between hostages is these minors were trialed for real crimes, which you probably wouldn't accept in your country as well (attempted murder for example) > no its not. this proves to me you have spent no time watching any of the documentaries exploring this. you wouldn't last a day living in the west bank as a palestinian. Ive seen plenty of videos of settlers shooting down palestinians in cold blood with IDF soldiers doing nothing to stop it. they only step in when palestinians fight back. as an american who studied history, I know enough about the ku klux klan to to know ethnic cleansing when I see it. Systematic extermination can be quantified. Let's say one way you could measure it is by comparing birth rate to intentional death rates. I assure you the growth rate of the palestinian population is extremely positive. Another way you can measure it is compare it to ongoing conflicts, the Syrian civil war which is currently ongoing has 600k casualties spanning a few years. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is ongoing for almost a hundred years and it hasn't reached 10% of that. It doesn't make it less tragic, but saying this is systematic extermination can minimize real cases of genocide. > I think its obvious that there is no amount of evidence that would meet the bar for you to consider whats going on an apartheid. I'm not sure. Again, apartheid is a government system that is based on systematic racism and discrimination. Although both exist in Israel, as in many other countries, this is a far cry than South Africa, or even the United States in the early 60s.

by tety 3y ago

cultofmetatron 3y ago

> This is a lot of anecdotal evidence. you see enough annectodatal evidence and it starts to become a pattern > And you are touching a lot of different subjects which I don't have time to refute one by one. thats how systematic oppression work. it has many facets and if you're pro israeli, you've only maintained that position by bot reading though the evidence > Convinction rate in Israel is over 90% for the entire population, not just palestinians. fair, but why do palestinians go thougha. seperate miliary court? why are children as young as 10 serving time in military prisons? october 7th was horrible but lets not ignore that it was motivated by people in a desperate situation trying to gain bargaining chips to have their loved ones released. some of those children released from the prisons in exchange for the israeli hostages were as young as 10 at the time of incarceration. "Systematically exterminated" - This is an extreme hyperbole.. no its not. this proves to me you have spent no time watching any of the documentaries exploring this. you wouldn't last a day living in the west bank as a palestinian. Ive seen plenty of videos of settlers shooting down palestinians in cold blood with IDF soldiers doing nothing to stop it. they only step in when palestinians fight back. as an american who studied history, I know enough about the ku klux klan to to know ethnic cleansing when I see it. > Please try to touch something more concrete than multiple anecdotes which most do not really represent anything similar to an apartheid government. I think its obvious that there is no amount of evidence that would meet the bar for you to consider whats going on an apartheid.

tety 3y ago
> you see enough annectodatal evidence and it starts to become a pattern Pattern for what? a national conflict is not the same as an apartheid government. We might need to go back to how you define apartheid, because I imagine separate bathrooms mandated by law, and it seems you imagine a national conflict in an occupied territory > thats how systematic oppression work. it has many facets and if you're pro israeli, you've only maintained that position by bot reading though the evidence Sounds a bit ad-hominem > fair, but why do palestinians go thougha. seperate miliary court? why are children as young as 10 serving time in military prisons? october 7th was horrible but lets not ignore that it was motivated by people in a desperate situation trying to gain bargaining chips to have their loved ones released. some of those children released from the prisons in exchange for the israeli hostages were as young as 10 at the time of incarceration. Military courts are how you manage a military occupied territory, I believe this is quite common in international law. Also Palestinians can appeal to the Israeli supreme court, many do and many decisions are overruled. About children as young as 10, I need specifics. Looking at Israeli human rights organizations which I don't think anyone would think are pro-government in any way, there weren't any younger than 14 for the very long while I scrolled (https://www.btselem.org/hebrew/statistics/minors_in_custody https://www.btselem.org/hebrew/statistics/minors_in_custody). The difference between hostages is these minors were trialed for real crimes, which you probably wouldn't accept in your country as well (attempted murder for example) > no its not. this proves to me you have spent no time watching any of the documentaries exploring this. you wouldn't last a day living in the west bank as a palestinian. Ive seen plenty of videos of settlers shooting down palestinians in cold blood with IDF soldiers doing nothing to stop it. they only step in when palestinians fight back. as an american who studied history, I know enough about the ku klux klan to to know ethnic cleansing when I see it. Systematic extermination can be quantified. Let's say one way you could measure it is by comparing birth rate to intentional death rates. I assure you the growth rate of the palestinian population is extremely positive. Another way you can measure it is compare it to ongoing conflicts, the Syrian civil war which is currently ongoing has 600k casualties spanning a few years. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is ongoing for almost a hundred years and it hasn't reached 10% of that. It doesn't make it less tragic, but saying this is systematic extermination can minimize real cases of genocide. > I think its obvious that there is no amount of evidence that would meet the bar for you to consider whats going on an apartheid. I'm not sure. Again, apartheid is a government system that is based on systematic racism and discrimination. Although both exist in Israel, as in many other countries, this is a far cry than South Africa, or even the United States in the early 60s.