5 ms·

I don't know if this is intentionally obtuse but its TRIVIALLY easy to find examples and journalistic documentaries demonstrating the apartheid going back years

I don't know if this is intentionally obtuse but its TRIVIALLY easy to find examples and journalistic documentaries demonstrating the apartheid going back years just of the top of my head, there are already seperate roads that palestinians are not allowed to go on. palestinians have to go through multiple checkpoints just to travel within their own territory. palestinians are tried in a separate military court with a 90% conviction rate. here's some links https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCh043-gLIM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCh043-gLIM how Israel created a water crisis https://novaramedia.com/2023/12/20/israeli-soldiers-are-snatching-palestinians-phones-and-punishing-them-for-having-photos-of-gaza/?fbclid=IwAR2duDzrJb4FfsNMcV2XMpaTPzQnE0sXXNGY_lGCMpbv7bbqu7EHNJTuJyc https://novaramedia.com/2023/12/20/israeli-soldiers-are-snat... Israeli soldiers are arresting and beating up palestinians simply for having photos of gaza. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC6bMfikaiQ&ab_channel=CNN https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC6bMfikaiQ&ab_channel=CNN here we see settler violence going on in the west bank where hamas does not opearte. its a direct contradiction to the israeli claim that there would be peac in the middle east of the arabs put their guns down. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkN6PH5cG7c&ab_channel=AlJazeeraEnglish https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkN6PH5cG7c&ab_channel=AlJaz... an israeli company has already put together a promo for luxury homes for israeli's to be built on the ruins of gaza. where will these people who lived there go? oh right, they are being systematically exterminated right now. like, this took just 5 min of googling. The evidence is out there in PLAIN sight so the only way I can understand someone not knowing at this point is if they are intentionally looking the other way. its not too disimilar to germans living near the concentration camps. people looked the other way because it wasn't convenient to know what was really happening.

tety 3y ago
This is a lot of anecdotal evidence. And you are touching a lot of different subjects which I don't have time to refute one by one. Examples: 1. Convinction rate in Israel is over 90% for the entire population, not just palestinians. This is because different reasons such as preference not to press charges if there is not a very high chance of conviction, plea bargains, etc. 2. Multiple checkpoints - The security situation in the west bank is a reflection of the fact this is an occupied territory which should have been solved in subsequent peace negotiations. This never happened, and the reasons for that rest on both sides, but you have to be honest with yourself if you think the Palestinians did not reject multiple fair peace offers. "Systematically exterminated" - This is an extreme hyperbole.. there are enough historical examples of how systematic exterminations looks like to make this a not serious claim. Just compare the amount of casualties of different middle eastern conflicts to the Israeli-Palestinian one Please try to touch something more concrete than multiple anecdotes which most do not really represent anything similar to an apartheid government.
- cultofmetatron 3y ago
  > This is a lot of anecdotal evidence. you see enough annectodatal evidence and it starts to become a pattern > And you are touching a lot of different subjects which I don't have time to refute one by one. thats how systematic oppression work. it has many facets and if you're pro israeli, you've only maintained that position by bot reading though the evidence > Convinction rate in Israel is over 90% for the entire population, not just palestinians. fair, but why do palestinians go thougha. seperate miliary court? why are children as young as 10 serving time in military prisons? october 7th was horrible but lets not ignore that it was motivated by people in a desperate situation trying to gain bargaining chips to have their loved ones released. some of those children released from the prisons in exchange for the israeli hostages were as young as 10 at the time of incarceration. "Systematically exterminated" - This is an extreme hyperbole.. no its not. this proves to me you have spent no time watching any of the documentaries exploring this. you wouldn't last a day living in the west bank as a palestinian. Ive seen plenty of videos of settlers shooting down palestinians in cold blood with IDF soldiers doing nothing to stop it. they only step in when palestinians fight back. as an american who studied history, I know enough about the ku klux klan to to know ethnic cleansing when I see it. > Please try to touch something more concrete than multiple anecdotes which most do not really represent anything similar to an apartheid government. I think its obvious that there is no amount of evidence that would meet the bar for you to consider whats going on an apartheid.
  - tety 3y ago
    > you see enough annectodatal evidence and it starts to become a pattern Pattern for what? a national conflict is not the same as an apartheid government. We might need to go back to how you define apartheid, because I imagine separate bathrooms mandated by law, and it seems you imagine a national conflict in an occupied territory > thats how systematic oppression work. it has many facets and if you're pro israeli, you've only maintained that position by bot reading though the evidence Sounds a bit ad-hominem > fair, but why do palestinians go thougha. seperate miliary court? why are children as young as 10 serving time in military prisons? october 7th was horrible but lets not ignore that it was motivated by people in a desperate situation trying to gain bargaining chips to have their loved ones released. some of those children released from the prisons in exchange for the israeli hostages were as young as 10 at the time of incarceration. Military courts are how you manage a military occupied territory, I believe this is quite common in international law. Also Palestinians can appeal to the Israeli supreme court, many do and many decisions are overruled. About children as young as 10, I need specifics. Looking at Israeli human rights organizations which I don't think anyone would think are pro-government in any way, there weren't any younger than 14 for the very long while I scrolled (https://www.btselem.org/hebrew/statistics/minors_in_custody https://www.btselem.org/hebrew/statistics/minors_in_custody). The difference between hostages is these minors were trialed for real crimes, which you probably wouldn't accept in your country as well (attempted murder for example) > no its not. this proves to me you have spent no time watching any of the documentaries exploring this. you wouldn't last a day living in the west bank as a palestinian. Ive seen plenty of videos of settlers shooting down palestinians in cold blood with IDF soldiers doing nothing to stop it. they only step in when palestinians fight back. as an american who studied history, I know enough about the ku klux klan to to know ethnic cleansing when I see it. Systematic extermination can be quantified. Let's say one way you could measure it is by comparing birth rate to intentional death rates. I assure you the growth rate of the palestinian population is extremely positive. Another way you can measure it is compare it to ongoing conflicts, the Syrian civil war which is currently ongoing has 600k casualties spanning a few years. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is ongoing for almost a hundred years and it hasn't reached 10% of that. It doesn't make it less tragic, but saying this is systematic extermination can minimize real cases of genocide. > I think its obvious that there is no amount of evidence that would meet the bar for you to consider whats going on an apartheid. I'm not sure. Again, apartheid is a government system that is based on systematic racism and discrimination. Although both exist in Israel, as in many other countries, this is a far cry than South Africa, or even the United States in the early 60s.
krembo 3y ago
If they need to go thru checkpoints then they are not trespassing their territory. If that's the definition for apartheid then the US border control with Mexico should be taken down for second thoughts.
- cultofmetatron 3y ago
  > If they need to go thru checkpoints then they are not trespassing their territory. literally 2 seconds of googling can disprove that https://www.btselem.org/freedom_of_movement/checkpoints_and_forbidden_roads https://www.btselem.org/freedom_of_movement/checkpoints_and_... > If they need to go thru checkpoints then they are not trespassing their territory. if there was just one checkpoint between gaza and israel, yes that would be accurate but its not. last I checked, Mexicans don't have to pass though US checkpoints when they travel from tulum to cancun or mexico city.
  - krembo 3y ago
    Regardless to that btselem is an opinionated pro-palestinian organization, at least from the first 3 examples in the source they show biased information. The cities they mention and Hebron in particular, is divided between Israel and the Palestinian Authority by the 1996 agreements. From the nature of such division to get directly from one point to another might be impossible in some roads, yet there are other roads leading to same point, so no 2 points are totally disconnected.

tety 3y ago

This is a lot of anecdotal evidence. And you are touching a lot of different subjects which I don't have time to refute one by one. Examples: 1. Convinction rate in Israel is over 90% for the entire population, not just palestinians. This is because different reasons such as preference not to press charges if there is not a very high chance of conviction, plea bargains, etc. 2. Multiple checkpoints - The security situation in the west bank is a reflection of the fact this is an occupied territory which should have been solved in subsequent peace negotiations. This never happened, and the reasons for that rest on both sides, but you have to be honest with yourself if you think the Palestinians did not reject multiple fair peace offers. "Systematically exterminated" - This is an extreme hyperbole.. there are enough historical examples of how systematic exterminations looks like to make this a not serious claim. Just compare the amount of casualties of different middle eastern conflicts to the Israeli-Palestinian one Please try to touch something more concrete than multiple anecdotes which most do not really represent anything similar to an apartheid government.

cultofmetatron 3y ago
> This is a lot of anecdotal evidence. you see enough annectodatal evidence and it starts to become a pattern > And you are touching a lot of different subjects which I don't have time to refute one by one. thats how systematic oppression work. it has many facets and if you're pro israeli, you've only maintained that position by bot reading though the evidence > Convinction rate in Israel is over 90% for the entire population, not just palestinians. fair, but why do palestinians go thougha. seperate miliary court? why are children as young as 10 serving time in military prisons? october 7th was horrible but lets not ignore that it was motivated by people in a desperate situation trying to gain bargaining chips to have their loved ones released. some of those children released from the prisons in exchange for the israeli hostages were as young as 10 at the time of incarceration. "Systematically exterminated" - This is an extreme hyperbole.. no its not. this proves to me you have spent no time watching any of the documentaries exploring this. you wouldn't last a day living in the west bank as a palestinian. Ive seen plenty of videos of settlers shooting down palestinians in cold blood with IDF soldiers doing nothing to stop it. they only step in when palestinians fight back. as an american who studied history, I know enough about the ku klux klan to to know ethnic cleansing when I see it. > Please try to touch something more concrete than multiple anecdotes which most do not really represent anything similar to an apartheid government. I think its obvious that there is no amount of evidence that would meet the bar for you to consider whats going on an apartheid.
- tety 3y ago
  > you see enough annectodatal evidence and it starts to become a pattern Pattern for what? a national conflict is not the same as an apartheid government. We might need to go back to how you define apartheid, because I imagine separate bathrooms mandated by law, and it seems you imagine a national conflict in an occupied territory > thats how systematic oppression work. it has many facets and if you're pro israeli, you've only maintained that position by bot reading though the evidence Sounds a bit ad-hominem > fair, but why do palestinians go thougha. seperate miliary court? why are children as young as 10 serving time in military prisons? october 7th was horrible but lets not ignore that it was motivated by people in a desperate situation trying to gain bargaining chips to have their loved ones released. some of those children released from the prisons in exchange for the israeli hostages were as young as 10 at the time of incarceration. Military courts are how you manage a military occupied territory, I believe this is quite common in international law. Also Palestinians can appeal to the Israeli supreme court, many do and many decisions are overruled. About children as young as 10, I need specifics. Looking at Israeli human rights organizations which I don't think anyone would think are pro-government in any way, there weren't any younger than 14 for the very long while I scrolled (https://www.btselem.org/hebrew/statistics/minors_in_custody https://www.btselem.org/hebrew/statistics/minors_in_custody). The difference between hostages is these minors were trialed for real crimes, which you probably wouldn't accept in your country as well (attempted murder for example) > no its not. this proves to me you have spent no time watching any of the documentaries exploring this. you wouldn't last a day living in the west bank as a palestinian. Ive seen plenty of videos of settlers shooting down palestinians in cold blood with IDF soldiers doing nothing to stop it. they only step in when palestinians fight back. as an american who studied history, I know enough about the ku klux klan to to know ethnic cleansing when I see it. Systematic extermination can be quantified. Let's say one way you could measure it is by comparing birth rate to intentional death rates. I assure you the growth rate of the palestinian population is extremely positive. Another way you can measure it is compare it to ongoing conflicts, the Syrian civil war which is currently ongoing has 600k casualties spanning a few years. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is ongoing for almost a hundred years and it hasn't reached 10% of that. It doesn't make it less tragic, but saying this is systematic extermination can minimize real cases of genocide. > I think its obvious that there is no amount of evidence that would meet the bar for you to consider whats going on an apartheid. I'm not sure. Again, apartheid is a government system that is based on systematic racism and discrimination. Although both exist in Israel, as in many other countries, this is a far cry than South Africa, or even the United States in the early 60s.

krembo 3y ago

If they need to go thru checkpoints then they are not trespassing their territory. If that's the definition for apartheid then the US border control with Mexico should be taken down for second thoughts.

cultofmetatron 3y ago
> If they need to go thru checkpoints then they are not trespassing their territory. literally 2 seconds of googling can disprove that https://www.btselem.org/freedom_of_movement/checkpoints_and_forbidden_roads https://www.btselem.org/freedom_of_movement/checkpoints_and_... > If they need to go thru checkpoints then they are not trespassing their territory. if there was just one checkpoint between gaza and israel, yes that would be accurate but its not. last I checked, Mexicans don't have to pass though US checkpoints when they travel from tulum to cancun or mexico city.
- krembo 3y ago
  Regardless to that btselem is an opinionated pro-palestinian organization, at least from the first 3 examples in the source they show biased information. The cities they mention and Hebron in particular, is divided between Israel and the Palestinian Authority by the 1996 agreements. From the nature of such division to get directly from one point to another might be impossible in some roads, yet there are other roads leading to same point, so no 2 points are totally disconnected.