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Even their updated 2017 demands did not include peace with Israel if met. They offered only a ceasefire in exchange for 1967 borders, not a permanent peace deal

Even their updated 2017 demands did not include peace with Israel if met. They offered only a ceasefire in exchange for 1967 borders, not a permanent peace deal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas Anyway, they've shown their true colors at this point; very different statements recently: > Since the shocking Hamas attack on Oct. 7, in which Israel says about 1,400 people were killed — most of them civilians — and more than 240 others dragged back to Gaza as captives, the group’s leaders have praised the operation, with some hoping it will set off a sustained conflict that ends any pretense of coexistence among Israel, Gaza and the countries around them. “I hope that the state of war with Israel will become permanent on all the borders, and that the Arab world will stand with us,” Taher El-Nounou, a Hamas media adviser, told The Times. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/08/world/middleeast/hamas-israel-gaza-war.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/08/world/middleeast/hamas-is...

ignoramous 3y ago
> Even their updated 2017 demands did not include peace with Israel if met. India doesn't have peace with Pakistan. Doesn't mean the 2 nuclear powers (similarly partitioned up by the British) are at perpetual war. Hamas like PA accepts 2SS. It is expantionists in Israel that reject it. In fact, PA concedes to have a state on merely 19% of historic Palestine.
- reissbaker 3y ago
  I feel like you missed the part where the official Hamas spokesman called for permanent war.
  - ignoramous 3y ago
    You miss the part where Hamas was ready to step aside, as recently as 2021, if it meant a political agreement could be reached over the establishment of the Palestinian state: https://www.972mag.com/hamas-fatah-elections-israel-arrogance/ https://www.972mag.com/hamas-fatah-elections-israel-arroganc... Anyhow, after Hamas is gone like we are promised, let's see what new excuses crop up (like, 'all Pal civilians are Nazis' is already gathering some steam) to continue the subjugation of the Palestinians.
    - reissbaker 3y ago
      My statement is from 2023 and is the current state of affairs. Your source from 2021 does not include: 1. An actual statement 2. That was ever enacted FYI, what you are referring to is actually a proposal from Fatah to hold elections in 2021, and a promise from Hamas not to run. Hamas backed out of the agreement and ended up submitting candidates to run, despite briefly claiming they wouldn't, and according to Marwan Barghouti and Mohammad Dahlan [1], and even Hamas themselves [2], Abbas then canceled the elections out of fear his party would lose. Your article's claim that it was due to "heavy pressure" from the United States and Israel is unsourced; and regardless, long before the time of the cancellation, Hamas was running and any pretense that they would step aside was gone. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_e... 2: https://web.archive.org/web/20210430012358/https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-slams-abbass-decision-to-delay-palestinian-vote-as-a-coup/ https://web.archive.org/web/20210430012358/https://www.times...
      - ignoramous 3y ago
        > My statement is from 2023... GP started off with something from 2004! Glad we are making progress with timelines here, if nothing else. Speaking of 2023 statements, the ruling party in Israel democratically elected for 2 decades now, have made it abundantly clear that they'll continue to thwart any attempts at 2SS (https://archive.is/34Sg0 https://archive.is/34Sg0) because 'security of the only democracy in the Middle East is at stake'. Apartheid? Yes, for security. Siege? Aiwa, security. Bombing Syria and Iran? Also, security. I'd like to smoke what they are in Knesset to be this drunk on conflict and war. And for the majority to continue to vote them in, because 'security', is telling. The result is, Kahanists are now elected ministers; but God forbid Pals elect 'terrorists'... > Hamas backed out of the agreement and ended up submitting candidates to run I don't see a single mention of Hamas in the 2021 roster: https://www.elections.ps/tabid/1163/language/ar-PS/Default.aspx https://www.elections.ps/tabid/1163/language/ar-PS/Default.a... The Wikipedia page you linked to merely points out a former Hamas leader was running under a new party. > Your article's claim that it was due to "heavy pressure" from the United States and Israel is unsourced Abu Mazen is a puppet. No reason to believe he cancelled the elections despite ALL other factions (some 25+) wanting one. He most certainly can't do so without the support of whoever funds his little fiefdom. It is a forgone conclusion, as people say. > Hamas was running and any pretense that they would step aside was gone. I mean, you state that there hasn't been an actual statement (see below) but also claim it is all a ruse all in the space of 3 paragraphs... The full minutes of the talks were published in an official Emirati document. In essence, the message of the Hamas leadership was clear: "If you in Fatah are convinced that you can get a state from Israel along the 1967 lines through negotiations, go for it. We will not interfere."

ignoramous 3y ago

> Even their updated 2017 demands did not include peace with Israel if met. India doesn't have peace with Pakistan. Doesn't mean the 2 nuclear powers (similarly partitioned up by the British) are at perpetual war. Hamas like PA accepts 2SS. It is expantionists in Israel that reject it. In fact, PA concedes to have a state on merely 19% of historic Palestine.

reissbaker 3y ago
I feel like you missed the part where the official Hamas spokesman called for permanent war.
- ignoramous 3y ago
  You miss the part where Hamas was ready to step aside, as recently as 2021, if it meant a political agreement could be reached over the establishment of the Palestinian state: https://www.972mag.com/hamas-fatah-elections-israel-arrogance/ https://www.972mag.com/hamas-fatah-elections-israel-arroganc... Anyhow, after Hamas is gone like we are promised, let's see what new excuses crop up (like, 'all Pal civilians are Nazis' is already gathering some steam) to continue the subjugation of the Palestinians.
  - reissbaker 3y ago
    My statement is from 2023 and is the current state of affairs. Your source from 2021 does not include: 1. An actual statement 2. That was ever enacted FYI, what you are referring to is actually a proposal from Fatah to hold elections in 2021, and a promise from Hamas not to run. Hamas backed out of the agreement and ended up submitting candidates to run, despite briefly claiming they wouldn't, and according to Marwan Barghouti and Mohammad Dahlan [1], and even Hamas themselves [2], Abbas then canceled the elections out of fear his party would lose. Your article's claim that it was due to "heavy pressure" from the United States and Israel is unsourced; and regardless, long before the time of the cancellation, Hamas was running and any pretense that they would step aside was gone. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_e... 2: https://web.archive.org/web/20210430012358/https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-slams-abbass-decision-to-delay-palestinian-vote-as-a-coup/ https://web.archive.org/web/20210430012358/https://www.times...
    - ignoramous 3y ago
      > My statement is from 2023... GP started off with something from 2004! Glad we are making progress with timelines here, if nothing else. Speaking of 2023 statements, the ruling party in Israel democratically elected for 2 decades now, have made it abundantly clear that they'll continue to thwart any attempts at 2SS (https://archive.is/34Sg0 https://archive.is/34Sg0) because 'security of the only democracy in the Middle East is at stake'. Apartheid? Yes, for security. Siege? Aiwa, security. Bombing Syria and Iran? Also, security. I'd like to smoke what they are in Knesset to be this drunk on conflict and war. And for the majority to continue to vote them in, because 'security', is telling. The result is, Kahanists are now elected ministers; but God forbid Pals elect 'terrorists'... > Hamas backed out of the agreement and ended up submitting candidates to run I don't see a single mention of Hamas in the 2021 roster: https://www.elections.ps/tabid/1163/language/ar-PS/Default.aspx https://www.elections.ps/tabid/1163/language/ar-PS/Default.a... The Wikipedia page you linked to merely points out a former Hamas leader was running under a new party. > Your article's claim that it was due to "heavy pressure" from the United States and Israel is unsourced Abu Mazen is a puppet. No reason to believe he cancelled the elections despite ALL other factions (some 25+) wanting one. He most certainly can't do so without the support of whoever funds his little fiefdom. It is a forgone conclusion, as people say. > Hamas was running and any pretense that they would step aside was gone. I mean, you state that there hasn't been an actual statement (see below) but also claim it is all a ruse all in the space of 3 paragraphs... The full minutes of the talks were published in an official Emirati document. In essence, the message of the Hamas leadership was clear: "If you in Fatah are convinced that you can get a state from Israel along the 1967 lines through negotiations, go for it. We will not interfere."