5 ms·

I Just Need a Programmer

69 points by belltaco 3y ago

jzombie 3y ago
Any business proposition that begins with "Hey, I hear you're a programmer!" doesn't sound like a good business proposition at all.
cratermoon 3y ago
The "do it for exposure (because I don't value your skills enough to pay you what they are worth)" is rampant in the commercial arts. Photographers and other artists get it all the time.
- incanus77 3y ago
  People can die of exposure!
- Cerium 3y ago
  And those people can go here: https://www.nospec.com/ https://www.nospec.com/ I think I first saw this page back in maybe 2006 when I was much more interested in graphic arts.
matheusmoreira 3y ago
Implicit in the conversation is the notion that you're beneath them. They're the important guys dealing with all the important money making stuff. You're just a lowly programmer who should be glad to even be remembered. Look how generous they were, they gave you the privilege to work for free on their important enterprise. Aren't you thankful?
talldatethrow 3y ago
Here is proof they aren't mentally all there, thus clearly their idea is probably also half baked: "I mean there isn't that much to it, it's just a website with a database, I was hoping you could just throw it together as a favor." OP gave an hourly rate.. if their friend really thinks there's nothing to it, it shouldnt be too hard to pay for 3 hours of time and be on your way to business success. So either they don't even have enough money to pay for 3 hours of work, OR they think it's 30 hours of work and they expect you to just do that for free (wtf). We don't even need to go into the fact that really they're asking for 300 hours minimum realistically.
- kazinator 3y ago
  It also shows they don't understand IP issues. Okay, I will throw it together. Since I'm unpaid, and have no share in the business venture, I will be the sole copyright holder. To test the business idea, I will allow it to be run over 60 day free trial. Then we can talk about what happens next.
- safety1st 3y ago
  The thing is, one of the stages of the sales process is qualification. That's where you assess whether the prospective customer is an appropriate fit to actually become a customer. Among other things that includes finding out whether they have lots of money which they want to spend now. The OP did a beautiful job of qualification here, he sent one message, and then the prospect revealed that they weren't in the market for spending money on a programmer, and walked away. PERFECTION. This is a moment of joy for anyone in sales because they no longer have to waste a single minute with that useless contact, and they can move on. He should be happy! It's only programmers, artists etc. who seem to get cranky about the sales process and pen long cranky articles about how their craft doesn't get enough respect or whatever. There is clearly a huge market for programming, so there's no need for ruminating, just kick back with a beer, celebrate your newfound freetime, then get back to coding cool stuff.
  - talldatethrow 3y ago
    I'm basically a sales veteran, and what you write is totally true. However, it's ignoring that this conversation didn't start as a sales call. These were acquaintances, and the business guy thought he was asking a favor of a 'friend' (however foolishly). If a friend asked me why his car is making a funny noise, I don't quite him my rates.. even though Im also very skilled as a mechanic. If he asked me if I could help him in person change his timing belt, I'd consider. If he asked me to change it at my house while he was off doing other stuff, well.. he better be a good friend and the other stuff better helping his family member deal with cancer. The real question is, was the asker under the impression this is really a 2-3 hour favor, or were they really expecting a weeks worth of help for free? (I've never helped anyone with a task that took 40 hours in my life, and I'm a super helpful person)
Calamitous 3y ago
In business, I have four "bad words": just, only, simply, and obviously. Used in a work context, they are nearly always used in an attempt to diminish the perceived effort of something, so I get very sketched out when anyone (even/especially other programmers) starts throwing them around.
- rpmisms 3y ago
  I thought about this, trying to find exceptions, and you're completely right. Good list to put on my wall.
  - xboxnolifes 3y ago
    The only exception I could find is in the case of how I used it in this sentence.
- hysan 3y ago
  Hmm when I think about it, the only two in that list I’ve used are just and only. Whenever I see myself writing them in my response, I spend the 5-10 min to throw together the PR to do it. It’ll lack testing but I deploy it to a QA server and let the asker go wild with seeing if the solution matches. If I can’t do that, I realize there’s something else there and rewrite my response. I find that to be a useful gauge on the appropriateness of those words.
- ChoHag 3y ago
  [dead]
- sublinear 3y ago
  > Used in a work context, they are nearly always used in an attempt to diminish the perceived effort of something Similarly, when I hear people say "nearly always" to justify a position I get very sketched out and think they're either not listening or are inexperienced and irrationally afraid of what I'm trying to tell them.
kazinator 3y ago
> FULL DISCLOSURE: I'm a programmer, I have a vested interest in this not being true. Not necessarily; if you're a rare and expensive interchangeable pluggable component, you're okay. :)
madewulf 3y ago
So much ads on that blog ....
- nextlevelwizard 3y ago
  While the author has a point, this website really makes me feel also the ideas guy dodged a bullet
- lnxg33k1 3y ago
  On an opinion blog nevertheless
personjerry 3y ago
Reminds me of that Whartonite Seeks Code Monkey blog of similar stories: https://whartoniteseekscodemonkey-blog.tumblr.com/ https://whartoniteseekscodemonkey-blog.tumblr.com/
- mediumsmart 3y ago
  What a good idea to have the UI of that blog written by an AdCode Monkey.
MisterBastahrd 3y ago
Any idiot can have an idea. Hell, back in 1997, I wrote a list of 10 ideas I thought would make good online businesses when the technology was right. Of those, from what I remember, I predicted Amazon, Youtube/Netflix, Facebook, Discord, Twitch, Paypal, and Reddit. I had no part in any of them because I didn't have the knowhow, the money, the connections, or the time. I've been approached since then when people have "ideas." I explain to them that ideas are worthless and that if they want me to work with them, I want an 80% stake that we will renegotiate in time as they prove they can sell the product. This normally shuts them up in short order.
- tombert 3y ago
  I've gotten in arguments with so many people over this. Everyone has "ideas". Everyone has "good ideas". Most people occasionally have a "great idea". Ideas are free and require very little effort. Ideas really aren't worth anything. Ideas aren't what run the world, implementations of those ideas do. I suspect that if I went to a venture capitalist with just an idea like "Uber but for X", they would laugh me out of the building (or more likely ask how the hell I got in there in the first place). I've told this story before on HN, but I remember back in 2013, I needed a job, and responded to a posting on Craigslist for a software engineer. I met up with a nice lady who had an idea for a specific kind of travel website. She wanted me to make the entire website myself, and she was generously offering me 3% equity for doing it. I had no idea how to negotiate this, and I was slightly less confrontational at the time, so I politely declined, in no small part because I didn't want to work with someone that thought that an idea was worth 97% of a company while doing, as far as I could tell, between 0-5% of the actual work.
  - MisterBastahrd 3y ago
    Saying "hey, you're a developer, build this site for me" is the same as saying "hey, you're an architect and a supply chain expert and a manufacturing guru and an accountant, build this manufacturing plant and distribution center for me." Just because there aren't any bricks or steel doesn't mean there isn't any labor or expertise.
protastus 3y ago
Are they time travelers from the late 20th century? This attitude was very prevalent in the 1990's. There's no excuse for being ignorant about software in 2023 though.
- ido 3y ago
  I was about to write, I have seen this on occasion since I started my career (it's probably older, but that's when i became cognizant of it). I've had my first job as a programmer in 2001.
- tombert 3y ago
  I still get the occasional aspiring entrepreneur reaching out to me on LinkedIn asking me to build an app for them in exchange for free, or very nearly zero equity with no cash payment (like 0.05% of the product). I usually don't respond, but occasionally I tell them that what they're doing is unethical at best. If they have an actual business plan then they can pay the person doing the lion's share of the work or at least offer a sizeable equity package.
oeta 3y ago
I've been struggling with this for a long time. Maybe it's also because when I talk about and try to encourage the conversation, I oversimplify the programming part. I always try to encourage others not to think of it as sorcery, even though sometimes it is. But all of this is just to give non-experts the idea that it's simple to understand broadly. Of course, I spare them the time and technical details that require deep knowledge, just to keep them afloat. This ends up being what @OP has described.
- seba_dos1 3y ago
  The thing is: it is simple. But it is hard too. Non-technical people have trouble figuring out which parts are simple and which aren't. Slightly outdated, but in principle still relevant: https://xkcd.com/1425/ https://xkcd.com/1425/
drekipus 3y ago
I've tried helping these sorts of people (when i was younger). "it's super simple to throw together" turns into "no no you're doing it all wrong. what i'm looking for is a way to make like, microsoft word, you know how it automatically formats for you? yeah i want that on the blog comment field, and then you press the print button and it prints out the office printer" there's a never-ending list of fairly impossible requirements; "can't you just make it work like my computer at home" for people who have no real experience in software OR business.
riddlemethat 3y ago
The idea guy in this scenario doesn't even understand the basic idea that you have to provide "consideration" for the assignment of rights/copyright. If he does find a person to build his software as a favor, he's got potential issues like an unjust enrichment claim or worse if he does find a way to monetize it. If I somehow suffer the misfortune of interacting with someone like this I often stop the conversation and tell them to visit Fiverr. A half-baked idea coming from unseasoned people is not even going to make for a good consulting client. I tell them to hire a graphic artist to mock it up before they start with a programmer.
Mathnerd314 3y ago
I think if I got that email I would advise them to use ChatGPT. If it really is just throwing "a website with a database" together then I think ChatGPT would be sufficient to guide them through setting up a basic WordPress install and some plugins.
tombert 3y ago
Few years ago a neighbor in my apartment building found out I knew about computers, and he wanted me to "just build his app for him". Being polite, I tried explaining to him that I really don't know anything about app development, I just move and shift data around on servers and draw pictures on whiteboards, but I think he thought I was just being humble. Eventually after some relenting, I told him to email me with the details, and gave him my email address. He emailed me the next day, and "all" he wanted was a website that allowed users to upload arbitrary videos of any length, and recommend fun videos that could be shared, and have a comment system. I replied back explaining to him that that's a lot more than "just an app", requiring a fair bit of server infrastructure and storage to keep all the videos, even if my labor were free. He replied asking how much it would cost to run. He thought it was on the order of like $12 a month. I explained that closer to like $1000 a month to get started, like $200,000/month if it gets popular, not counting the ~$25,000 it would take to get a really crappy prototype built. He stopped talking to me after this.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Buttons840 3y ago
"We just need some software that does X", this is as reasonable as saying "we just need a building where we can do X". People get this idea because they see companies create programs over and over. The same applies to buildings, building are created reliably over and over and over. If all that stands between you and success is a building, or some software, you're in a good place. The difference is people have respect for the value of a building, they understand the cost, they understand the reason for those costs. People don't have the same understanding for software. Nobody would say "I thought you could just throw a 4,000 square foot house together for me, it's nothing special, just a common house", but apparently some people will say "I thought you could just throw a website with a database together for me, it's nothing special".
- matheusmoreira 3y ago
  Respect is at the heart of the issue. Disrespect for programmers seems to be endemic and it results in people suffering needless indignities. Even their choice of words is offensive: > throw a website with a database together People who say stuff like that think we're monkeys who slap shit together until it works. I don't know why software developers don't have practices with partners like lawyers, doctors and other professionals do. Seems like it would go a long way towards imposing some much deserved respect.
  - tempodox 3y ago
    Lawyers, doctors and other professionals also have barriers to entry and can lose their license if they violate the rules of their trade. As long as any Tom, Dick and Harriette can call themselves a Software Engineer, it will be that much harder to get that respect.
    - Buttons840 3y ago
      One difference between lawyers/doctors and software "engineers" is that often it's okay to just hack something together in software. It's still work to hack something together though, so if I'm hacking something together for someone else they'll have to pay for my work.
andrewfromx 3y ago
A famous writer told this same story. People would come up to them and say "I have your next book. It'll so be easy, I've got the outline, you just have to write it." They really believe "just write it" is a small detail.
hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
I don't doubt people like the author's acquaintance exist, but I think that putting them up as "the norm" is really just setting up a straw man, and so many of the "assumptions" in this article feel like straw men. To be clear, I don't doubt some people hold those assumptions, but given all the obvious evidence to the contrary, those people can be safely ignored as having no idea what they're talking about. For example, the largest, most profitable companies in the US are all tech companies, where software is either the primary product or an integral part of the product: Apple, Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Nvidia, Meta, and Tesla. So if you're someone who thinks "software engineers are interchangeable cogs" or "in a business, software is just the icing on the cake", then sorry, you're an idiot, because you're oblivious to the fact that the top companies won largely by having the best software. And these companies also legendarily pay mightily for the best talent - why would they do that if "writing software is easy" or "software engineers are interchangeable cogs"? It just irks me when people take idiotic statements and then hold them up as "assumptions" in need of myth-busting. It's like when journalists find a couple outlandish Twitter comments by a few rando mouth-breathers so they can put together an article with a "Look what people are saying online!!!" headline.
jacknews 3y ago
"software is just fluff compared to the business" The thing is, software pretty much is the business in many cases, or at least an essential component of it. Facebook is an advertising business, but without the websites and aps, there'd be no-one to advertise to and nowhere to do it.
mediumsmart 3y ago
Reminds me of that saying "be careful what you wish for". As others have pointed out in this thread, it’s ok to have ideas but it’s the implementations that ruin the world.
JackFr 3y ago
If you have a business, you have a business without an app If you don’t have a business without an app, the app is the business.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
daft_pink 3y ago
I don't think it indicates any change. I think people always want the programmers to work for free to fund their business deals and ideas that aren't very well though out with little understanding of what's involved. I think people also feel this way about most professions that the doctor can just look at your issue or the lawyer just implicitly known the answer to complicated legal questions and they have "quick questions" that they don't want to pay you a dime for.
avereveard 3y ago
I mean I would not provide labor for free and I will likely not provide labor at all for family and friends, it's too complicated, but still for friends I'd at least listen to the elevator pitch and steer them toward a reasonable outcome (which may include "you cannot do that without capital, set up a landing page on the cheap and raise some funding" or "wordpress now can be an entire e-commerce you don't even need a programmer" ) before firing off the consulting rates.
Joel_Mckay 3y ago
The proper reply to "I have an Idea for a business" is "we all have bills to pay, and we can't extend credit to any commercial project..." You may think this sounds unreasonable or crass, but one will end up getting conned eventually if you accept sweat equity deals for commercial projects. Also, if someone is deprecating something you value... like your area of specialization... the premise of a "good" friendship should be reconsidered.
JodieBenitez 3y ago
Ah... reminds me of this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U
tempodox 3y ago
> More manpower = more progress, right? If managers in a company that actually pays developers can make that mistake, it's no surprise that people with less experience have even more false assumptions. And, of course, expecting anyone to work for free gives me the suspicion that these guys haven't grown up yet.
danjc 3y ago
We all have simplistic models of things we don't understand. It's important to train yourself to push back from that default perspective in domains you're not familiar with.
voiceblue 3y ago
Another submission with the same title (and spirit) had a good discussion here 13 years ago [0]. It's nice (?) to see that people never change. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1962008 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1962008
egamirorrim 3y ago
What I will sometimes do in this situation is a free look at the requirements, throw some rough time estimates against it. Maybe even offer to try and manage it for them a bit via some cheaper Upwork developers if they don't like my rates. Of course emphasising that you generally get what you pay for in terms of quality. That's the favour. Generally though I totally agree, i got over working for free after starting a (basically) clone of Uber for a friend who 'just needed something throwing together' when I was 19!
prakashn27 3y ago
People start with “simple website” and after prototype they expect to see “Facebook or google” like website. No no no. You get what you pay for should be the motto.
SillyUsername 3y ago
I've experienced this from friends too. Once you say no, their understanding improves as they pick up the work themselves and then they realise that actually, no, it isn't easy or quick. Their ideas drop pretty quick after that.
FloNeu 3y ago
Reading that makes me think you’re probably at least 10-15 , because when I started out working as a web developer in the early 2000s (when there was no word for unicorns, full -stack developers etc) this felt like happening on a daily basis ^^ Also you are much smarter then me back then - as you had quite a good response ready (I usually just sight finished my beer and looked for the nearest exit)… maybe that’s a side effect of people usually having learned that software development is expensive by now ^^ But some might be a bit slower then others ^^
vcg3rd 3y ago
That's incredibly frustrating. I'm not a programmer or computer anything (except a perpetual Linux journeyman) but my dad was a craftsman who could make wood sing, and no one appreciated what it took. I am forever thinking of drawings I would do to enhance (for myself) some idea or note I'm developing but I can't draw, but I would never ask someone who could to do it for me as a favor. I had a once-in-a-lifetime dog who died, and I have an idea for a triptych of 3 scenes on him I am saving up to pay someone to paint. I would never, ever say I just need an artist. Ideas are easy. Craft is demanding. Mastery is damn hard.
yobert 3y ago
My favorite response is to tell them I'll look at it after they have sketched what every single screen looks like, with every single button accounted for and reasoned about. They agree to it, and I have yet to see a finished proposal.

69 points by belltaco 3y ago

Any business proposition that begins with "Hey, I hear you're a programmer!" doesn't sound like a good business proposition at all.

cratermoon 3y ago

The "do it for exposure (because I don't value your skills enough to pay you what they are worth)" is rampant in the commercial arts. Photographers and other artists get it all the time.

incanus77 3y ago
People can die of exposure!
Cerium 3y ago
And those people can go here: https://www.nospec.com/ https://www.nospec.com/ I think I first saw this page back in maybe 2006 when I was much more interested in graphic arts.

matheusmoreira 3y ago

Implicit in the conversation is the notion that you're beneath them. They're the important guys dealing with all the important money making stuff. You're just a lowly programmer who should be glad to even be remembered. Look how generous they were, they gave you the privilege to work for free on their important enterprise. Aren't you thankful?

talldatethrow 3y ago

Here is proof they aren't mentally all there, thus clearly their idea is probably also half baked: "I mean there isn't that much to it, it's just a website with a database, I was hoping you could just throw it together as a favor." OP gave an hourly rate.. if their friend really thinks there's nothing to it, it shouldnt be too hard to pay for 3 hours of time and be on your way to business success. So either they don't even have enough money to pay for 3 hours of work, OR they think it's 30 hours of work and they expect you to just do that for free (wtf). We don't even need to go into the fact that really they're asking for 300 hours minimum realistically.

kazinator 3y ago
It also shows they don't understand IP issues. Okay, I will throw it together. Since I'm unpaid, and have no share in the business venture, I will be the sole copyright holder. To test the business idea, I will allow it to be run over 60 day free trial. Then we can talk about what happens next.
safety1st 3y ago
The thing is, one of the stages of the sales process is qualification. That's where you assess whether the prospective customer is an appropriate fit to actually become a customer. Among other things that includes finding out whether they have lots of money which they want to spend now. The OP did a beautiful job of qualification here, he sent one message, and then the prospect revealed that they weren't in the market for spending money on a programmer, and walked away. PERFECTION. This is a moment of joy for anyone in sales because they no longer have to waste a single minute with that useless contact, and they can move on. He should be happy! It's only programmers, artists etc. who seem to get cranky about the sales process and pen long cranky articles about how their craft doesn't get enough respect or whatever. There is clearly a huge market for programming, so there's no need for ruminating, just kick back with a beer, celebrate your newfound freetime, then get back to coding cool stuff.
- talldatethrow 3y ago
  I'm basically a sales veteran, and what you write is totally true. However, it's ignoring that this conversation didn't start as a sales call. These were acquaintances, and the business guy thought he was asking a favor of a 'friend' (however foolishly). If a friend asked me why his car is making a funny noise, I don't quite him my rates.. even though Im also very skilled as a mechanic. If he asked me if I could help him in person change his timing belt, I'd consider. If he asked me to change it at my house while he was off doing other stuff, well.. he better be a good friend and the other stuff better helping his family member deal with cancer. The real question is, was the asker under the impression this is really a 2-3 hour favor, or were they really expecting a weeks worth of help for free? (I've never helped anyone with a task that took 40 hours in my life, and I'm a super helpful person)

Calamitous 3y ago

In business, I have four "bad words": just, only, simply, and obviously. Used in a work context, they are nearly always used in an attempt to diminish the perceived effort of something, so I get very sketched out when anyone (even/especially other programmers) starts throwing them around.

rpmisms 3y ago
I thought about this, trying to find exceptions, and you're completely right. Good list to put on my wall.
- xboxnolifes 3y ago
  The only exception I could find is in the case of how I used it in this sentence.
hysan 3y ago
Hmm when I think about it, the only two in that list I’ve used are just and only. Whenever I see myself writing them in my response, I spend the 5-10 min to throw together the PR to do it. It’ll lack testing but I deploy it to a QA server and let the asker go wild with seeing if the solution matches. If I can’t do that, I realize there’s something else there and rewrite my response. I find that to be a useful gauge on the appropriateness of those words.
ChoHag 3y ago
[dead]
sublinear 3y ago
> Used in a work context, they are nearly always used in an attempt to diminish the perceived effort of something Similarly, when I hear people say "nearly always" to justify a position I get very sketched out and think they're either not listening or are inexperienced and irrationally afraid of what I'm trying to tell them.

kazinator 3y ago

> FULL DISCLOSURE: I'm a programmer, I have a vested interest in this not being true. Not necessarily; if you're a rare and expensive interchangeable pluggable component, you're okay. :)

madewulf 3y ago

So much ads on that blog ....

nextlevelwizard 3y ago
While the author has a point, this website really makes me feel also the ideas guy dodged a bullet
lnxg33k1 3y ago
On an opinion blog nevertheless

personjerry 3y ago

Reminds me of that Whartonite Seeks Code Monkey blog of similar stories: https://whartoniteseekscodemonkey-blog.tumblr.com/ https://whartoniteseekscodemonkey-blog.tumblr.com/

mediumsmart 3y ago
What a good idea to have the UI of that blog written by an AdCode Monkey.

MisterBastahrd 3y ago

Any idiot can have an idea. Hell, back in 1997, I wrote a list of 10 ideas I thought would make good online businesses when the technology was right. Of those, from what I remember, I predicted Amazon, Youtube/Netflix, Facebook, Discord, Twitch, Paypal, and Reddit. I had no part in any of them because I didn't have the knowhow, the money, the connections, or the time. I've been approached since then when people have "ideas." I explain to them that ideas are worthless and that if they want me to work with them, I want an 80% stake that we will renegotiate in time as they prove they can sell the product. This normally shuts them up in short order.

tombert 3y ago
I've gotten in arguments with so many people over this. Everyone has "ideas". Everyone has "good ideas". Most people occasionally have a "great idea". Ideas are free and require very little effort. Ideas really aren't worth anything. Ideas aren't what run the world, implementations of those ideas do. I suspect that if I went to a venture capitalist with just an idea like "Uber but for X", they would laugh me out of the building (or more likely ask how the hell I got in there in the first place). I've told this story before on HN, but I remember back in 2013, I needed a job, and responded to a posting on Craigslist for a software engineer. I met up with a nice lady who had an idea for a specific kind of travel website. She wanted me to make the entire website myself, and she was generously offering me 3% equity for doing it. I had no idea how to negotiate this, and I was slightly less confrontational at the time, so I politely declined, in no small part because I didn't want to work with someone that thought that an idea was worth 97% of a company while doing, as far as I could tell, between 0-5% of the actual work.
- MisterBastahrd 3y ago
  Saying "hey, you're a developer, build this site for me" is the same as saying "hey, you're an architect and a supply chain expert and a manufacturing guru and an accountant, build this manufacturing plant and distribution center for me." Just because there aren't any bricks or steel doesn't mean there isn't any labor or expertise.

protastus 3y ago

Are they time travelers from the late 20th century? This attitude was very prevalent in the 1990's. There's no excuse for being ignorant about software in 2023 though.

ido 3y ago
I was about to write, I have seen this on occasion since I started my career (it's probably older, but that's when i became cognizant of it). I've had my first job as a programmer in 2001.
tombert 3y ago
I still get the occasional aspiring entrepreneur reaching out to me on LinkedIn asking me to build an app for them in exchange for free, or very nearly zero equity with no cash payment (like 0.05% of the product). I usually don't respond, but occasionally I tell them that what they're doing is unethical at best. If they have an actual business plan then they can pay the person doing the lion's share of the work or at least offer a sizeable equity package.

oeta 3y ago

I've been struggling with this for a long time. Maybe it's also because when I talk about and try to encourage the conversation, I oversimplify the programming part. I always try to encourage others not to think of it as sorcery, even though sometimes it is. But all of this is just to give non-experts the idea that it's simple to understand broadly. Of course, I spare them the time and technical details that require deep knowledge, just to keep them afloat. This ends up being what @OP has described.

seba_dos1 3y ago
The thing is: it is simple. But it is hard too. Non-technical people have trouble figuring out which parts are simple and which aren't. Slightly outdated, but in principle still relevant: https://xkcd.com/1425/ https://xkcd.com/1425/

drekipus 3y ago

I've tried helping these sorts of people (when i was younger). "it's super simple to throw together" turns into "no no you're doing it all wrong. what i'm looking for is a way to make like, microsoft word, you know how it automatically formats for you? yeah i want that on the blog comment field, and then you press the print button and it prints out the office printer" there's a never-ending list of fairly impossible requirements; "can't you just make it work like my computer at home" for people who have no real experience in software OR business.

riddlemethat 3y ago

The idea guy in this scenario doesn't even understand the basic idea that you have to provide "consideration" for the assignment of rights/copyright. If he does find a person to build his software as a favor, he's got potential issues like an unjust enrichment claim or worse if he does find a way to monetize it. If I somehow suffer the misfortune of interacting with someone like this I often stop the conversation and tell them to visit Fiverr. A half-baked idea coming from unseasoned people is not even going to make for a good consulting client. I tell them to hire a graphic artist to mock it up before they start with a programmer.

Mathnerd314 3y ago

I think if I got that email I would advise them to use ChatGPT. If it really is just throwing "a website with a database" together then I think ChatGPT would be sufficient to guide them through setting up a basic WordPress install and some plugins.

tombert 3y ago

Few years ago a neighbor in my apartment building found out I knew about computers, and he wanted me to "just build his app for him". Being polite, I tried explaining to him that I really don't know anything about app development, I just move and shift data around on servers and draw pictures on whiteboards, but I think he thought I was just being humble. Eventually after some relenting, I told him to email me with the details, and gave him my email address. He emailed me the next day, and "all" he wanted was a website that allowed users to upload arbitrary videos of any length, and recommend fun videos that could be shared, and have a comment system. I replied back explaining to him that that's a lot more than "just an app", requiring a fair bit of server infrastructure and storage to keep all the videos, even if my labor were free. He replied asking how much it would cost to run. He thought it was on the order of like $12 a month. I explained that closer to like $1000 a month to get started, like $200,000/month if it gets popular, not counting the ~$25,000 it would take to get a really crappy prototype built. He stopped talking to me after this.

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Buttons840 3y ago

"We just need some software that does X", this is as reasonable as saying "we just need a building where we can do X". People get this idea because they see companies create programs over and over. The same applies to buildings, building are created reliably over and over and over. If all that stands between you and success is a building, or some software, you're in a good place. The difference is people have respect for the value of a building, they understand the cost, they understand the reason for those costs. People don't have the same understanding for software. Nobody would say "I thought you could just throw a 4,000 square foot house together for me, it's nothing special, just a common house", but apparently some people will say "I thought you could just throw a website with a database together for me, it's nothing special".

matheusmoreira 3y ago
Respect is at the heart of the issue. Disrespect for programmers seems to be endemic and it results in people suffering needless indignities. Even their choice of words is offensive: > throw a website with a database together People who say stuff like that think we're monkeys who slap shit together until it works. I don't know why software developers don't have practices with partners like lawyers, doctors and other professionals do. Seems like it would go a long way towards imposing some much deserved respect.
- tempodox 3y ago
  Lawyers, doctors and other professionals also have barriers to entry and can lose their license if they violate the rules of their trade. As long as any Tom, Dick and Harriette can call themselves a Software Engineer, it will be that much harder to get that respect.
  - Buttons840 3y ago
    One difference between lawyers/doctors and software "engineers" is that often it's okay to just hack something together in software. It's still work to hack something together though, so if I'm hacking something together for someone else they'll have to pay for my work.

andrewfromx 3y ago

A famous writer told this same story. People would come up to them and say "I have your next book. It'll so be easy, I've got the outline, you just have to write it." They really believe "just write it" is a small detail.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago

I don't doubt people like the author's acquaintance exist, but I think that putting them up as "the norm" is really just setting up a straw man, and so many of the "assumptions" in this article feel like straw men. To be clear, I don't doubt some people hold those assumptions, but given all the obvious evidence to the contrary, those people can be safely ignored as having no idea what they're talking about. For example, the largest, most profitable companies in the US are all tech companies, where software is either the primary product or an integral part of the product: Apple, Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Nvidia, Meta, and Tesla. So if you're someone who thinks "software engineers are interchangeable cogs" or "in a business, software is just the icing on the cake", then sorry, you're an idiot, because you're oblivious to the fact that the top companies won largely by having the best software. And these companies also legendarily pay mightily for the best talent - why would they do that if "writing software is easy" or "software engineers are interchangeable cogs"? It just irks me when people take idiotic statements and then hold them up as "assumptions" in need of myth-busting. It's like when journalists find a couple outlandish Twitter comments by a few rando mouth-breathers so they can put together an article with a "Look what people are saying online!!!" headline.

jacknews 3y ago

"software is just fluff compared to the business" The thing is, software pretty much is the business in many cases, or at least an essential component of it. Facebook is an advertising business, but without the websites and aps, there'd be no-one to advertise to and nowhere to do it.

mediumsmart 3y ago

Reminds me of that saying "be careful what you wish for". As others have pointed out in this thread, it’s ok to have ideas but it’s the implementations that ruin the world.

JackFr 3y ago

If you have a business, you have a business without an app If you don’t have a business without an app, the app is the business.

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daft_pink 3y ago

I don't think it indicates any change. I think people always want the programmers to work for free to fund their business deals and ideas that aren't very well though out with little understanding of what's involved. I think people also feel this way about most professions that the doctor can just look at your issue or the lawyer just implicitly known the answer to complicated legal questions and they have "quick questions" that they don't want to pay you a dime for.

avereveard 3y ago

I mean I would not provide labor for free and I will likely not provide labor at all for family and friends, it's too complicated, but still for friends I'd at least listen to the elevator pitch and steer them toward a reasonable outcome (which may include "you cannot do that without capital, set up a landing page on the cheap and raise some funding" or "wordpress now can be an entire e-commerce you don't even need a programmer" ) before firing off the consulting rates.

Joel_Mckay 3y ago

The proper reply to "I have an Idea for a business" is "we all have bills to pay, and we can't extend credit to any commercial project..." You may think this sounds unreasonable or crass, but one will end up getting conned eventually if you accept sweat equity deals for commercial projects. Also, if someone is deprecating something you value... like your area of specialization... the premise of a "good" friendship should be reconsidered.

JodieBenitez 3y ago

Ah... reminds me of this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U

tempodox 3y ago

> More manpower = more progress, right? If managers in a company that actually pays developers can make that mistake, it's no surprise that people with less experience have even more false assumptions. And, of course, expecting anyone to work for free gives me the suspicion that these guys haven't grown up yet.

danjc 3y ago

We all have simplistic models of things we don't understand. It's important to train yourself to push back from that default perspective in domains you're not familiar with.

voiceblue 3y ago

Another submission with the same title (and spirit) had a good discussion here 13 years ago [0]. It's nice (?) to see that people never change. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1962008 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1962008

egamirorrim 3y ago

What I will sometimes do in this situation is a free look at the requirements, throw some rough time estimates against it. Maybe even offer to try and manage it for them a bit via some cheaper Upwork developers if they don't like my rates. Of course emphasising that you generally get what you pay for in terms of quality. That's the favour. Generally though I totally agree, i got over working for free after starting a (basically) clone of Uber for a friend who 'just needed something throwing together' when I was 19!

prakashn27 3y ago

People start with “simple website” and after prototype they expect to see “Facebook or google” like website. No no no. You get what you pay for should be the motto.

SillyUsername 3y ago

I've experienced this from friends too. Once you say no, their understanding improves as they pick up the work themselves and then they realise that actually, no, it isn't easy or quick. Their ideas drop pretty quick after that.

FloNeu 3y ago

Reading that makes me think you’re probably at least 10-15 , because when I started out working as a web developer in the early 2000s (when there was no word for unicorns, full -stack developers etc) this felt like happening on a daily basis ^^ Also you are much smarter then me back then - as you had quite a good response ready (I usually just sight finished my beer and looked for the nearest exit)… maybe that’s a side effect of people usually having learned that software development is expensive by now ^^ But some might be a bit slower then others ^^

vcg3rd 3y ago

That's incredibly frustrating. I'm not a programmer or computer anything (except a perpetual Linux journeyman) but my dad was a craftsman who could make wood sing, and no one appreciated what it took. I am forever thinking of drawings I would do to enhance (for myself) some idea or note I'm developing but I can't draw, but I would never ask someone who could to do it for me as a favor. I had a once-in-a-lifetime dog who died, and I have an idea for a triptych of 3 scenes on him I am saving up to pay someone to paint. I would never, ever say I just need an artist. Ideas are easy. Craft is demanding. Mastery is damn hard.

yobert 3y ago

My favorite response is to tell them I'll look at it after they have sketched what every single screen looks like, with every single button accounted for and reasoned about. They agree to it, and I have yet to see a finished proposal.