3 ms·

The Renaissance changed beauty standards

28 points by Vigier 3y ago

haspoken 3y ago
https://archive.is/Cke8z https://archive.is/Cke8z
oglop 3y ago
And then the internet changed it again. Amazing to see how different beauty standards are just in my lifetime from the 80s to now.
- 082349872349872 3y ago
  I'm just awaiting the world where we go back to textual handles online because there are only a dozen or so widely accepted "pretty" headshots, each shared between hundreds of millions of people (although those rich enough to do so remain ugly/lazy)...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
corethree 3y ago
[flagged]
- zoklet-enjoyer 3y ago
  The name of the forum is Hacker News
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - fnordpiglet 3y ago
    And in the hacker community we’ve created such a hostile environment to women that despite half of humans being women, and women before the 80’s being well represented in the technology industry, there are basically no women. There are a lot of culture and history articles posted here, particularly of the bent of an interesting analysis of some obscura. I don’t mind women talking about women’s cultural topics and history, so long as it’s interesting new information, any more than I mind the posts about archeology or various ancient societies that are posted here and discussed regularly. Perhaps then we might get some more women hanging out with us. I personally find the monoculture in technical communities tedious, and the grief women get for asserting themselves in any way at all depressing. I just hope we can change all this before my daughter gets old enough to be excluded and taught her place is somewhere other than here.
    - thoaihfasdf 3y ago
      > Perhaps then we might get some more women hanging out with us. Have you had any luck with this? In my experience, women will stop hanging out once married or in an established long term relationship.
      - fnordpiglet 3y ago
        Hang out in online communities? Sure. Even married women have friendships outside the home. And technical forums tend to attract technically inclined women. But hangout for beers after work? Yeah that’s often mostly single men and women, or with spouses more understanding than mine ;-)
- zemvpferreira 3y ago
  How would you know who is upvoting this story? As a man, am I not allowed to upvote this article? Why divide us into men and women in the first place?
  - corethree 3y ago
    By statistics and common sense. Men and women are different and behave differently. Certainly more women would vote this up. Doesn't preclude men from doing it, but I imagine it would be far less. Just a educated guess based on demographics. Just like saying conservatives vote for trump or liberals vote for Biden. The generality is true even if the pedantic technicality is not.
  - Rapzid 3y ago
    There is no way to know.
    - corethree 3y ago
      But you can make an educated guess that's quite likely to be true.
  - fnordpiglet 3y ago
    It’s interesting, I read it as a note addressing the women up voting rather than a note asserting only women are upvoting. Surely it’s reasonable there are in fact women reading HN and upvoting? But, maybe you’re right and they’re that type of uppity woman. Edit: and the original comment was flagged and removed for shouting out to the women of HN.
    - zemvpferreira 3y ago
      I still find the attitude gross. Would the women of HN not upvote an article on Rust, or serverless architectures? What's with these gender stereotypes in a community of hackers? Not all men are brutes and not all women are ditzy. I can't believe this needs to be said. Anyone can like anything.
fnordpiglet 3y ago
It’s interesting they note the association of paleness with beauty, which has been lost a bit in European culture over time but is vibrant in Asia where dark complexion is considered low, with associations of poverty, low class, and ignorance. Women in Asia go to elaborate means to lighten their skin, from hiding from the sun to wearing sunscreen, all the way to questionably safe skin lightening treatments with various chemicals and procedures at often exorbitant rates. Flipping to the other side of the world, Europeans are sunbathing, using tanning chemicals, and other means to get the exact opposite effect. (My pet theory is this is because tanning is a product of a life of leisure, which is increasingly harder to get and sun exposure isn’t as associated with poverty and manual labor as people moved indoors to work in the west). I got married 23 years ago, and was along for the ride with the cultural norms of feminine beauty. In fact the lengths women went to intrigued me, partially because it was a sort of subjugation for my pleasure. As I grew older I saw that as disgusting, and learned that my wife is my companion and that is where the beauty of the sexes truly lies. As I had a daughter I saw things yet again as telling girls to never feel truly comfortable in any context, to always be wrong in who they are, to only be acceptable if they make themselves different than their natural self. As a man that’s a shocking way to live, we are taught to belch and fart and dress the way we feel comfortable. Don’t shave for a few days? Handsome. Why have we done this to our friends, lovers, companions, daughters, sisters, mothers? Yeah I get it women do it to themselves as well, when I say “we,” I mean all of us humans. It’s a sad thing that half of us can structurally never be comfortable in themselves.
- cousin_it 3y ago
  > In fact the lengths women went to intrigued me, partially because it was a sort of subjugation for my pleasure. They don't do it for your pleasure. They do it to get something they want - attract someone cool. Men also do lots of things for that reason.
  - fnordpiglet 3y ago
    Sorry, how does attracting someone cool not mean doing it for the pleasure of the someone cool? That seems like exactly the reason they’re doing it. The attraction isn’t like magnetism, it’s not a physical force. It’s by creating pleasure in the opposite sex, creating an image that’s pleasing to them. So, yes, they in fact do do it for my pleasure. And I’m not saying that’s necessarily a wrong thing. I do things to attract people as well. They also do it for their own - I’m not saying women don’t want to be more beautiful only for men’s pleasure. But my point is, what a strange structure we have that half of the humans on earth feel profoundly and unshakably uncomfortable by being simply their selves without modifications? Like, literally can’t be seen in public without applying substances to their face to change how they look?

28 points by Vigier 3y ago

https://archive.is/Cke8z https://archive.is/Cke8z

And then the internet changed it again. Amazing to see how different beauty standards are just in my lifetime from the 80s to now.

082349872349872 3y ago
I'm just awaiting the world where we go back to textual handles online because there are only a dozen or so widely accepted "pretty" headshots, each shared between hundreds of millions of people (although those rich enough to do so remain ugly/lazy)...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

corethree 3y ago

[flagged]

zoklet-enjoyer 3y ago
The name of the forum is Hacker News
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  And in the hacker community we’ve created such a hostile environment to women that despite half of humans being women, and women before the 80’s being well represented in the technology industry, there are basically no women. There are a lot of culture and history articles posted here, particularly of the bent of an interesting analysis of some obscura. I don’t mind women talking about women’s cultural topics and history, so long as it’s interesting new information, any more than I mind the posts about archeology or various ancient societies that are posted here and discussed regularly. Perhaps then we might get some more women hanging out with us. I personally find the monoculture in technical communities tedious, and the grief women get for asserting themselves in any way at all depressing. I just hope we can change all this before my daughter gets old enough to be excluded and taught her place is somewhere other than here.
  - thoaihfasdf 3y ago
    > Perhaps then we might get some more women hanging out with us. Have you had any luck with this? In my experience, women will stop hanging out once married or in an established long term relationship.
    - fnordpiglet 3y ago
      Hang out in online communities? Sure. Even married women have friendships outside the home. And technical forums tend to attract technically inclined women. But hangout for beers after work? Yeah that’s often mostly single men and women, or with spouses more understanding than mine ;-)
zemvpferreira 3y ago
How would you know who is upvoting this story? As a man, am I not allowed to upvote this article? Why divide us into men and women in the first place?
- corethree 3y ago
  By statistics and common sense. Men and women are different and behave differently. Certainly more women would vote this up. Doesn't preclude men from doing it, but I imagine it would be far less. Just a educated guess based on demographics. Just like saying conservatives vote for trump or liberals vote for Biden. The generality is true even if the pedantic technicality is not.
- Rapzid 3y ago
  There is no way to know.
  - corethree 3y ago
    But you can make an educated guess that's quite likely to be true.
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  It’s interesting, I read it as a note addressing the women up voting rather than a note asserting only women are upvoting. Surely it’s reasonable there are in fact women reading HN and upvoting? But, maybe you’re right and they’re that type of uppity woman. Edit: and the original comment was flagged and removed for shouting out to the women of HN.
  - zemvpferreira 3y ago
    I still find the attitude gross. Would the women of HN not upvote an article on Rust, or serverless architectures? What's with these gender stereotypes in a community of hackers? Not all men are brutes and not all women are ditzy. I can't believe this needs to be said. Anyone can like anything.

fnordpiglet 3y ago

It’s interesting they note the association of paleness with beauty, which has been lost a bit in European culture over time but is vibrant in Asia where dark complexion is considered low, with associations of poverty, low class, and ignorance. Women in Asia go to elaborate means to lighten their skin, from hiding from the sun to wearing sunscreen, all the way to questionably safe skin lightening treatments with various chemicals and procedures at often exorbitant rates. Flipping to the other side of the world, Europeans are sunbathing, using tanning chemicals, and other means to get the exact opposite effect. (My pet theory is this is because tanning is a product of a life of leisure, which is increasingly harder to get and sun exposure isn’t as associated with poverty and manual labor as people moved indoors to work in the west). I got married 23 years ago, and was along for the ride with the cultural norms of feminine beauty. In fact the lengths women went to intrigued me, partially because it was a sort of subjugation for my pleasure. As I grew older I saw that as disgusting, and learned that my wife is my companion and that is where the beauty of the sexes truly lies. As I had a daughter I saw things yet again as telling girls to never feel truly comfortable in any context, to always be wrong in who they are, to only be acceptable if they make themselves different than their natural self. As a man that’s a shocking way to live, we are taught to belch and fart and dress the way we feel comfortable. Don’t shave for a few days? Handsome. Why have we done this to our friends, lovers, companions, daughters, sisters, mothers? Yeah I get it women do it to themselves as well, when I say “we,” I mean all of us humans. It’s a sad thing that half of us can structurally never be comfortable in themselves.

cousin_it 3y ago
> In fact the lengths women went to intrigued me, partially because it was a sort of subjugation for my pleasure. They don't do it for your pleasure. They do it to get something they want - attract someone cool. Men also do lots of things for that reason.
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  Sorry, how does attracting someone cool not mean doing it for the pleasure of the someone cool? That seems like exactly the reason they’re doing it. The attraction isn’t like magnetism, it’s not a physical force. It’s by creating pleasure in the opposite sex, creating an image that’s pleasing to them. So, yes, they in fact do do it for my pleasure. And I’m not saying that’s necessarily a wrong thing. I do things to attract people as well. They also do it for their own - I’m not saying women don’t want to be more beautiful only for men’s pleasure. But my point is, what a strange structure we have that half of the humans on earth feel profoundly and unshakably uncomfortable by being simply their selves without modifications? Like, literally can’t be seen in public without applying substances to their face to change how they look?