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I’m not going to argue with your core point, but New York is a state where the Working Families Party successfully beat the centrist Republican-aligned Independ

I’m not going to argue with your core point, but New York is a state where the Working Families Party successfully beat the centrist Republican-aligned Independent Democrat Conference in the state Senate. This led to the New York Court of Appeals overturning current electoral maps and opens the door for a Democrat-favorable map for 2024. Conditions in NY are atypical and the success of the Working Families Party can’t be trivially duplicated but it’s one of the best examples of long term strategic third party activity we have in the U.S.

bobthepanda 3y ago
Third parties in the US fail usually because they are run the complete opposite of how minor parties operate in other countries. Most third parties in the US (unlike WFP) tend to go for a strategy for shooting the moon and aiming at top spots immediately, which has never worked. Third parties in other countries generally have a go at wining local seats first and building their base from there.
- BobaFloutist 3y ago
  They also focus on attacking their moderate fellows over their ideological opponents, instead of forming a coalition with moderates.
- brendank310 3y ago
  At least in NY (and probably true of state/local politics in general) this is not necessarily true. These third parties often will choose a D or R that align with their policy goals. It helps candidates in that their name is on the ballot more (either multiple rows or listing the parties that they are the nominee of)
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    New York's system is unique, though there are some other states where cross-endorsement is possible.
  - bobthepanda 3y ago
    That isn’t really a third party though that most people would think of; when people are saying this in the context of US elections they usually mean they want a third actual person on the general ballot. The US lacks a third party like the UK’s Lib Dems or Greens, or Canada’s NDP. (The US has a Green party that is pretty farcical and doesn’t actually win elections.)
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      > That isn’t really a third party though that most people would think of; when people are saying this in the context of US elections they usually mean they want a third actual person on the general ballot. There are usually significantly more than three names on a Presidential general election ballot. The US has a two-party system because it has an electoral system in which voting for any but the least offensive of the two major parties structurually is subiptimal in achieving ones preferences, not because there are only two options on the ballot.
      - bobthepanda 3y ago
        For the presidential ballot this is true. For the local school board or mayor, this is less true, because nearly all third parties do not field separate candidates in these races. It’s possible to win these races since the margin of victory is measured in the hundreds or single-digit thousands, but none of the third parties build up a base and instead shoot for the moon and inevitably lose.
        dragonwriter 3y ago
        > For the local school board or mayor, this is less true, because nearly all third parties do not field separate candidates in these races. In mich of the country, school board (and in somewhat less, mayoral) elections are nonpartisan. Its true that some local races are poorly contested, but that's actually largely unrelated to party structure, and more related to an insufficiency of people interested in the job (this usually isn’t a problem for mayors and schoolboards.) Where these races are partisan, minor parties frequently contest them, and even where they aren't, minor parties can be found organizing around them (though where they are formally nonpartisan, you may not notice this, since the endorsement of the third-party may only be actively highlighted to party members.) > It’s possible to win these races since the margin of victory is measured in the hundreds or single-digit thousands And third parties do win them. Virtually all of the third party elected officials in the US are exactly this kind of local official, with a smaller number of state officials.

bobthepanda 3y ago

Third parties in the US fail usually because they are run the complete opposite of how minor parties operate in other countries. Most third parties in the US (unlike WFP) tend to go for a strategy for shooting the moon and aiming at top spots immediately, which has never worked. Third parties in other countries generally have a go at wining local seats first and building their base from there.

BobaFloutist 3y ago
They also focus on attacking their moderate fellows over their ideological opponents, instead of forming a coalition with moderates.
brendank310 3y ago
At least in NY (and probably true of state/local politics in general) this is not necessarily true. These third parties often will choose a D or R that align with their policy goals. It helps candidates in that their name is on the ballot more (either multiple rows or listing the parties that they are the nominee of)
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  New York's system is unique, though there are some other states where cross-endorsement is possible.
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  That isn’t really a third party though that most people would think of; when people are saying this in the context of US elections they usually mean they want a third actual person on the general ballot. The US lacks a third party like the UK’s Lib Dems or Greens, or Canada’s NDP. (The US has a Green party that is pretty farcical and doesn’t actually win elections.)
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > That isn’t really a third party though that most people would think of; when people are saying this in the context of US elections they usually mean they want a third actual person on the general ballot. There are usually significantly more than three names on a Presidential general election ballot. The US has a two-party system because it has an electoral system in which voting for any but the least offensive of the two major parties structurually is subiptimal in achieving ones preferences, not because there are only two options on the ballot.
    - bobthepanda 3y ago
      For the presidential ballot this is true. For the local school board or mayor, this is less true, because nearly all third parties do not field separate candidates in these races. It’s possible to win these races since the margin of victory is measured in the hundreds or single-digit thousands, but none of the third parties build up a base and instead shoot for the moon and inevitably lose.
      - dragonwriter 3y ago
        > For the local school board or mayor, this is less true, because nearly all third parties do not field separate candidates in these races. In mich of the country, school board (and in somewhat less, mayoral) elections are nonpartisan. Its true that some local races are poorly contested, but that's actually largely unrelated to party structure, and more related to an insufficiency of people interested in the job (this usually isn’t a problem for mayors and schoolboards.) Where these races are partisan, minor parties frequently contest them, and even where they aren't, minor parties can be found organizing around them (though where they are formally nonpartisan, you may not notice this, since the endorsement of the third-party may only be actively highlighted to party members.) > It’s possible to win these races since the margin of victory is measured in the hundreds or single-digit thousands And third parties do win them. Virtually all of the third party elected officials in the US are exactly this kind of local official, with a smaller number of state officials.