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These are big, longstanding brands that have utterly destroyed their reputation and trust with the public. VW, Cummins, etc. Not good, what's wrong in our soc
by iancmceachern 3y ago
These are big, longstanding brands that have utterly destroyed their reputation and trust with the public. VW, Cummins, etc.
Not good, what's wrong in our society where iconic brands like this feel the need and go out and commit fraud? Hundreds of people had to have been involved in this, conspired to cheat ourselves out of clean air.
We must do better.
- rahimnathwani 3y agodestroyed their reputation and trust with the public I'm not sure this is true. VW has the highest EU market share of any car brand, and VW group accounts for about a quarter of new cars sold in the EU.
- oblio 3y agoTo put this in a better perspective: VW is the second biggest car manufacturer in the world, selling 7x as many cars as American darling Tesla.
- iancmceachern 3y agoThat's for all of VW group no? What about VW badges specifically, what are the numbers there? It's relevant because of brand recognition. If the brand differences didn't matter, they wouldn't have kept them, it would all be under one brand. It seeks pertinent, given the confusion, to clarify that the first comment above was about the Vw brand, second about the group. It's confusing to conflate the two. In service of more clear and concise communication it may he helpful to focus on one or the other to make a point.
- lillecarl 3y agoIs that relevant though? They're still under the same umbrella, sharing parts, R&D, manufacturing plants and internal politics to some extent.
- rahimnathwani 3y agoThe first part of my comment is about VW-badged vehicles. The second is about VW Group.
- iancmceachern 3y agoNot what I read: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/11/27/business/volkswagen-brand-no-longer-competitive/index.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/11/27/busi...
- rahimnathwani 3y agoThat article doesn't contradict anything I said. It doesn't even mention market share.
- iancmceachern 3y agoIn the US, VW group has a 4.1% market share down from 4.3% last year: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/11/27/business/volkswagen-brand-no-longer-competitive/index.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/11/27/busi... In Europe VW has a 9.8% market share down almost 2% from the previous year: https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/volkswagen-europe-sales-figures/#:~:text=Volkswagen%20sold%201%2C010%2C272%20vehicles%20in,share%20in%20Europe%20is%209.8%25 https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/volkswagen-europe-sales-figure.... This is relevant because it shows that VW is loosing significant market share in US and Europe. It's loosing about 20% market share per year (2% off 10%). This is after dieselgate. One could infer that dieselgate caused consumers to no longer trust VW, along with other systemic problems within the company and its products, could be a cause of this downturn in market share.
- mmikeff 3y agoVW group includes Audi, Skoda, Seat, Porsche, Bentley, Seat and others
- rahimnathwani 3y agoBoth 2022 and 2023 were after the dieselgate rulings, so how are those changes relevant? EDIT: I wrote this comment before parent's ninja edit.
- gunapologist99 3y ago
- dfgfek 3y agoEcologists use their media presence to spread the idea that emission scandals destroy your brand. The (unfortunate, for them) truth is that people don't care.
- iancmceachern 3y agoI care deeply. I drive a Diesel Super Duty, and almost bought a Ram Cummins when i bought it. I have a good friend who has worked for Cummins for 20 years, and many other friends with various diesel trucks. I won't buy one of their products now because of this. I deeply care, I'm right in the middle of their target demographic, and I have 40 years left of spending to do in my life. Speak for yourself, I'll speak for me and my friends.
- InCityDreams 3y ago>and I have 40 years left of spending to do in my life. Given the amount of unnecessary shite in the air, I'll guess you're about 11 years old and not expecting things to improve much.
- iancmceachern 3y agoAverage if expectancy is 80, 80 minus forty is forty. Air quality has actually been getting steadily better in the areas the world that I live in because of the other companies following the new emissions laws properly. Im confident my diesel truck and RV will allow my family to seek "greener pastures" if needed. The key is to stay happy with a modest lifestyle. The people that will be screwed are the people with 5000 Sq ft mansons that need $1500 a month in energy just to keep them from being uninhabitable. The neighborhoods in Arizona that won't have water. If we all do more with less, be kind, and don't complain - we will be fine. Editing because I can't reply to the awesome comment below. Love it, so true. Statistics changes as you move through space and time. Thank you for this lovely perspective!
- cjbgkagh 3y agoAverage life expectancy for someone who is 40 is more than the average life expectancy at birth given all the not dying that you’ve done since then.
- digitalengineer 3y agoThere's Volkswagen, that had diesel engines that could detect when they were being tested and changed the performance to improve results. These engines emitted nitrogen oxide pollutants up to 40 times above what is allowed. And there's there's this. This is INSANE if you ask me. It's modifying a diesel engine where the sole purpose is to emit an excessive amount of black smoke. It's a form of 'f*ck you anti-environmentalism.
- AmVess 3y agoTheir way of detecting testing? They put the GPS coordinates of the testing centers in the car's computers, and the car would change to emissions complaint mode when it was in the area of the testing centers. In non Clown World, everyone responsible for it would be in jail and the company shut down.
- SoftTalker 3y agoUtterly destroyed their reputation? Um, no. These trucks hold their value unlike almost any other vehicle. A 20 year old Dodge RAM with a Cummins will still sell for $20-$30k if it's halfway nice. The first thing most owners of a Dodge RAM with a Cummins do is install performance modifications. They will flash a custom tune in the engine control system, change the fuel injection, intake and turbocharger, etc. and set it up so that it can "roll coal" they don't care one iota about emissions. The Dodge RAM was the last full-size truck made with a manual transmission. I have been watching Craigslist and FB marketplace for one of these with a Cummins to come up in factory stock condition. They are rare. They've almost all been modified.
- iancmceachern 3y agoSuper Duty's will likely hold its value better. GMs too. Especially now after this news. It's odd to say that the result of an action hasn't happened when you haven't given it time. Perhaps If we wait on year, then look at resale numbers this news would have effected them. That would tell us the truth. Looking at the data now tells us nothing about the impact of this event, because it just happened. Yes, a Ram diesel will hold its value better than a car, but it's the bottom out of the big 3 diesel truck makers. The "old guys" always say with the Rams that the truck falls apart around the engine. The engine lasts, but the rest of the truck has all been replaced by then.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- jtbayly 3y agoAgreed. From my perspective, these companies are ignoring the law to give people what they want. How does that destroy their reputation with the public? After all the ways the government rules have made my purchases worse, I'm inclined trust these companies more, not less.
- iancmceachern 3y agoWatch a documentary about LA smog in the 70s. Watch some documentary footage on children with lead poisoning from leaded gas. Report back your findings.
- alluro2 3y agoI like how you phrased it - "cheat ourselves out of clean air". In my country (Serbia), politicians basically pocketed the money assigned for filters for most of heavy industry, and there's speculation of importing and burning waste from EU countries - which wouldn't be surprising given the AQI levels of 150-300 on the regular during winter months. We're a red circle in a green sea on AQI map of Europe, together with Bosnia and Herzegovina (Sarajevo was the second worst location in the world a couple of days ago). I can definitely understand corruption and stealing for self-gain, it's a very familiar concept here. But those people, and their kids (!) are living here and breathing the same air - they're doing it to themselves (as well as to everyone else) - how stupid and greedy do you have to be?
- alephnerd 3y ago> their kids (!) are living here Won't their kids leave for London, San Francisco, Vancouver, or New York? At least that's what the children of the Indian and Chinese officials who I know did.
- alluro2 3y agoUnfortunately, in a lot of cases, they seem to prefer to embrace the family tradition, stay, and keep riding the backs of the people.
- alephnerd 3y agoActually, now that I think about it, it makes sense. Leaving might leave you open to prosecution for financial crimes, and naturalization can become difficult depending on how high you go. A couple of my classmates and friends from families lower down the chain naturalized, but those higher basically had to return.
- robertlagrant 3y agoYou still need to be smart and hard-working to do well in those cities. Can't buy the same level of lifestyle for the money compared to where they are currently.
- oceanplexian 3y agoActually, the opposite, I’m a car guy and I’d be super interested in buying an older Diesel that is easy to defeat. You can tune it for better mileage, more power, and delete the need for DEF fluid. I have no interest in rolling coal, but modern emissions systems are over-complicated, expensive and cause massive reliability issues so some bureaucrat can make some number look good on a spreadsheet.
- jeffbee 3y agoHaha yeah stick it to them kids. Fuck them and their lungs, amirite?
- linksnapzz 3y agoFor every person with a new diesel pickup that deletes the DPF & SCR equipment, there's about forty class 4-8 trucks thatr 30+ years old, in questionable tune, and polluting far more...legally.
- iancmceachern 3y agoTotally, and everytime one of those is replaced with a new one our air gets better. Related - there are a ton of old Detroit 2 cycle diesel motors on heavy trucks that are being phased out. Its getting harder to find mechanics to work on them. Super interesting motor if your interested in that kind of stuff, 2 cycle diesel, very reliable, highly polluting.
- linksnapzz 3y agoThe last Detroit 6-71 two-stroke six I saw was in fire apparatus; where I suppose power density and reliability are paramount relative to emissions.
- Palomides 3y agoroutine emissions evasion by people like you is going to get diesels banned entirely for personal vehicles (and good riddance)
- nikanj 3y agoHonestly I think the target market for Cummins sees this as a good thing. From a twisted coal-roller perspective, the company tried to own the ’libs and stupid democrats are punishing them for no reason.
- iancmceachern 3y agoI totally disagree. This is a hurtful stereotype. I saw a thing recently that "white trash" is the last disenfranchised socioeconomic group that it's ok to make fun of in polite society. It's not. I am a professional, educated, respectable, respectful adult man. I drive a diesel truck because my wife and I have a large RV which we travel in visiting friends and relatives all over the country. There are millions and millions of people like me. Doctors, lawyers, engineers, judges, etc. And even if some of us are hillbillies like you imply. They're OK too. Passing judgement is passing judgement. This is no better than a comment putting someone down for their country of birth or some other discriminatory thing.
- woodruffw 3y agoThe GP didn't mention "white trash." Your comment, while sensitive and reasonable, is talking past them. I've spent a decent amount of time in and around small towns, and I've encountered my fair share of coal rollers (including people who demonstrated visible glee at seeing a target on a bicycle). Those people do make the kind of purchasing decisions that are aligned with this corporate behavior; companies are often incentivized to target their most "extreme" purchasing base, knowing that more moderate consumers (like yourself) will shrug either way.
- iancmceachern 3y agoThank you. Yes they do, but those people aren't buying new $90k trucks. They aren't driving the marketing department of a billion dollar company. Let's be honest here, they're buying old wrecked stuff and fixing it up. If you go shopping for these new trucks, really, they're selling them to ranch owners, construction company foreman, lineman, etc. They're sold in trims like "King Ranch", and platinum. You can't get all the coal rolling crap at the dealers. They aren't connected. It would be like conflating the street racing scene with what features Honda was adding to the new civic. They're just world's apart. Anyone remotely associated with these cultures knows that.
- goles 3y agoYou make another good point perhaps inadvertently. If hundred(s) of people were involved, but Cummins employs somewhere between 60,000-70,000 people. It's actually a relatively small number of decision makers who can cause enormous damage to a brand’s reputation. Their public response to the fines is pretty telling of a culture where no one probably feels like they can or should stand up and say, "This will hit our metrics but are we really doing the right thing?" and not get immediately let go or sidelined.
- dmkolobov 3y agoI would be surprised if their target market gave a shit. Large trucks and Cummins engines are marketed to the same folks who run coal-rolling mods.
- iancmceachern 3y agoThe latter is a smaller subset of the other.
- BeefDinnerPurge 3y ago[flagged]
- wannacboatmovie 3y agoMost people I know with diesel trucks have some sort of emissions modification. So I'd say this is completely missing the point.
- iancmceachern 3y agoMost people I know don't, myself included. What's the benefit, why do people do it?
- wannacboatmovie 3y agoDEF bypass is a popular one.