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The target is Hamas. Some innocents are dying, but the intent isn’t to deliberately kill them. And there is no evidence any of those other criteria are even hap

The target is Hamas. Some innocents are dying, but the intent isn’t to deliberately kill them. And there is no evidence any of those other criteria are even happening.

sschueller 3y ago
There is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fP-J8m-BF0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fP-J8m-BF0 , NY Times: Visual Evidence Shows Israel Dropped Bombs Where It Ordered Gaza Civilians to Go
- riku_iki 3y ago
  > Where It Ordered Gaza Civilians to Go to be specific: actual content says Israel asked civilians to move to South Gaza, while claim is that they still targeted targets there.
- dlubarov 3y ago
  So there are two explanations 1) Israel asked civilians to move south to be relatively safer, some important Hamas officers moved south along with them, and Israel targeted them. 2) The strikes weren't about Hamas officers, but just a deliberate killing of civilians. If you're saying this is evidence of genocide, that means you're discounting (1) and assuming (2)? Why? I'm not condoning (1), which suggests IDF is prioritizing its concerns (expediency etc) over civilian lives, but that clearly doesn't meet the definition of genocide.
Xelbair 3y ago
[flagged]
Chris2048 3y ago
> The target is Hamas "Two Thirds of Gaza War Dead Are Women and Children" -- https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15503.doc.htm https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15503.doc.htm
- riku_iki 3y ago
  that person didn't provide source of information. Likely this is data from local authorities, aka Hamas.
  - Chris2048 3y ago
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67347201 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67347201 https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestinians-have-died-gaza-war-how-will-counting-continue-2023-12-06/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestini...
    - riku_iki 3y ago
      Both of your links say that data came from Hamas: "The Hamas-run health ministry is Gaza's official source for death numbers"
      - tomjakubowski 3y ago
        The article continues to explain that Gaza health ministry casualty counts for past conflicts have been confirmed after the fact by third party international organizations, like the WHO. The records they release include names, genders, ages and ID numbers of deceased people. If you claim the data is fake then you should be able to identify some made-up deaths in it.
        riku_iki 3y ago
        > past conflicts have been confirmed after the fact by third party international organizations, like the WHO. This is not my reading that WHO or any other org confirmed anything. They say in 2014 both Israel and Palestinians agreed on number of casualties, but this time discrepancy is 10x. > If you claim the data is fake then you should be able to identify some made-up deaths in it. say they made up some ID, name, gender and age. How exactly I could identify this?
  - deleted 3y ago
C6JEsQeQa5fCjE 3y ago
> Some innocents are dying It is estimated that about 70% of killed people (which has gone over 20000 recently) are women and children. Those are not Hamas fighters. Even if you assume that every adult male that has been killed was a Hamas fighter (which is obviously not going to be the case), that is still 70% of people who are killed by IDF being innocent civilians. [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestinians-have-died-gaza-war-how-will-counting-continue-2023-12-06/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestini... > the intent isn’t to deliberately kill them. And there is no evidence any of those other criteria are even happening On the contrary, even the mere evidence in form of public statements by the leaders of Israel strongly suggests intent to harm civilians. The statements suggest that they are pursuing revenge on the whole Gaza strip, and aiming to inflict as many casualties as they can get away with. - Prime Minister Netanyahu pledged to reduce parts of Gaza “to rubble” and invoked the people of Amalek, the foe that God ordered the ancient Israelites to genocide in the Bible, in a recent speech. [1] - Defense minister Yoav Gallant called for a “complete siege” on Gaza and stated that “we are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly.” [1] - Army spokesperson Daniel Hagari said forces would turn Gaza into a “city of tents” and admitted that Israel’s “emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy” in dropping hundreds of tons of bombs on Gaza. [1] - Ariel Kallner, a member of parliament from Netanyahu’s Likud party, wrote on X after the Hamas attack: “Right now, one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of 48. Nakba in Gaza and Nakba to anyone who dares to join!” [2] - Giora Eiland, a reservist major general and former head of the Israeli National Security Council, wrote in a popular Hebrew-language newspaper, “The State of Israel has no choice but to turn Gaza into a place that is temporarily or permanently impossible to live in.” Elsewhere, he specified that “Israel needs to create a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, compelling tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands to seek refuge in Egypt or the Gulf” and indeed that Israel must demand that “The entire population of Gaza will either move to Egypt or move to the Gulf.” Finally, he said that “Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist.” [2] - “Human animals must be treated as such. There will be no electricity and no water [in Gaza], there will only be destruction. You wanted hell, you will get hell.”, IDF general Ghassan Aliyan [3] - Revital Gotliv, a Parliament member from Netanyahu’s ruling Likud party, called for Israel to use nuclear weapons in Gaza: “It’s time for a doomsday weapon. Shooting powerful missiles without limit. Not flattening a neighborhood. Crushing and flattening Gaza.” [1] - Galit Distel Atbaryan, also of Likud, posted on X in Hebrew that Israelis should invest their energy in one thing: “Erasing all of Gaza from the face of the earth” and forcing the “Gazan monsters” either to flee the strip to Egypt or to face their death. [1] [1] https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/13/23954731/genocide-israel-gaza-palestine https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/13/23954731/genoc... [2] https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23933707/israel-palestine-hamas-gaza-nakba-displacement-refugees-history https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23933707/israel-palestine... [3] https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/cogat-chief-addresses-gazans-you-wanted-hell-you-will-get-hell/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/cogat-chief-add...
za3faran 3y ago
The Israelis admitted that they are fighting "human animals" (remember who else used dehumanization tactics in WWII?), and that their goal was "damage, not accuracy".
meticulous_gal 3y ago
[flagged]

The target is Hamas. Some innocents are dying, but the intent isn’t to deliberately kill them. And there is no evidence any of those other criteria are even happening.

sschueller 3y ago

There is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fP-J8m-BF0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fP-J8m-BF0 , NY Times: Visual Evidence Shows Israel Dropped Bombs Where It Ordered Gaza Civilians to Go

riku_iki 3y ago
> Where It Ordered Gaza Civilians to Go to be specific: actual content says Israel asked civilians to move to South Gaza, while claim is that they still targeted targets there.
dlubarov 3y ago
So there are two explanations 1) Israel asked civilians to move south to be relatively safer, some important Hamas officers moved south along with them, and Israel targeted them. 2) The strikes weren't about Hamas officers, but just a deliberate killing of civilians. If you're saying this is evidence of genocide, that means you're discounting (1) and assuming (2)? Why? I'm not condoning (1), which suggests IDF is prioritizing its concerns (expediency etc) over civilian lives, but that clearly doesn't meet the definition of genocide.

Xelbair 3y ago

[flagged]

Chris2048 3y ago

> The target is Hamas "Two Thirds of Gaza War Dead Are Women and Children" -- https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15503.doc.htm https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15503.doc.htm

riku_iki 3y ago
that person didn't provide source of information. Likely this is data from local authorities, aka Hamas.
- Chris2048 3y ago
  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67347201 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67347201 https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestinians-have-died-gaza-war-how-will-counting-continue-2023-12-06/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestini...
  - riku_iki 3y ago
    Both of your links say that data came from Hamas: "The Hamas-run health ministry is Gaza's official source for death numbers"
    - tomjakubowski 3y ago
      The article continues to explain that Gaza health ministry casualty counts for past conflicts have been confirmed after the fact by third party international organizations, like the WHO. The records they release include names, genders, ages and ID numbers of deceased people. If you claim the data is fake then you should be able to identify some made-up deaths in it.
      - riku_iki 3y ago
        > past conflicts have been confirmed after the fact by third party international organizations, like the WHO. This is not my reading that WHO or any other org confirmed anything. They say in 2014 both Israel and Palestinians agreed on number of casualties, but this time discrepancy is 10x. > If you claim the data is fake then you should be able to identify some made-up deaths in it. say they made up some ID, name, gender and age. How exactly I could identify this?
- deleted 3y ago

C6JEsQeQa5fCjE 3y ago

> Some innocents are dying It is estimated that about 70% of killed people (which has gone over 20000 recently) are women and children. Those are not Hamas fighters. Even if you assume that every adult male that has been killed was a Hamas fighter (which is obviously not going to be the case), that is still 70% of people who are killed by IDF being innocent civilians. [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestinians-have-died-gaza-war-how-will-counting-continue-2023-12-06/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestini... > the intent isn’t to deliberately kill them. And there is no evidence any of those other criteria are even happening On the contrary, even the mere evidence in form of public statements by the leaders of Israel strongly suggests intent to harm civilians. The statements suggest that they are pursuing revenge on the whole Gaza strip, and aiming to inflict as many casualties as they can get away with. - Prime Minister Netanyahu pledged to reduce parts of Gaza “to rubble” and invoked the people of Amalek, the foe that God ordered the ancient Israelites to genocide in the Bible, in a recent speech. [1] - Defense minister Yoav Gallant called for a “complete siege” on Gaza and stated that “we are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly.” [1] - Army spokesperson Daniel Hagari said forces would turn Gaza into a “city of tents” and admitted that Israel’s “emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy” in dropping hundreds of tons of bombs on Gaza. [1] - Ariel Kallner, a member of parliament from Netanyahu’s Likud party, wrote on X after the Hamas attack: “Right now, one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of 48. Nakba in Gaza and Nakba to anyone who dares to join!” [2] - Giora Eiland, a reservist major general and former head of the Israeli National Security Council, wrote in a popular Hebrew-language newspaper, “The State of Israel has no choice but to turn Gaza into a place that is temporarily or permanently impossible to live in.” Elsewhere, he specified that “Israel needs to create a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, compelling tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands to seek refuge in Egypt or the Gulf” and indeed that Israel must demand that “The entire population of Gaza will either move to Egypt or move to the Gulf.” Finally, he said that “Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist.” [2] - “Human animals must be treated as such. There will be no electricity and no water [in Gaza], there will only be destruction. You wanted hell, you will get hell.”, IDF general Ghassan Aliyan [3] - Revital Gotliv, a Parliament member from Netanyahu’s ruling Likud party, called for Israel to use nuclear weapons in Gaza: “It’s time for a doomsday weapon. Shooting powerful missiles without limit. Not flattening a neighborhood. Crushing and flattening Gaza.” [1] - Galit Distel Atbaryan, also of Likud, posted on X in Hebrew that Israelis should invest their energy in one thing: “Erasing all of Gaza from the face of the earth” and forcing the “Gazan monsters” either to flee the strip to Egypt or to face their death. [1] [1] https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/13/23954731/genocide-israel-gaza-palestine https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/13/23954731/genoc... [2] https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23933707/israel-palestine-hamas-gaza-nakba-displacement-refugees-history https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23933707/israel-palestine... [3] https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/cogat-chief-addresses-gazans-you-wanted-hell-you-will-get-hell/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/cogat-chief-add...

za3faran 3y ago

The Israelis admitted that they are fighting "human animals" (remember who else used dehumanization tactics in WWII?), and that their goal was "damage, not accuracy".

meticulous_gal 3y ago

[flagged]