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"People have somehow been convinced a small amount of civilians being killed relative to the whole population is somehow a “genocide”" Per UN definition[1]: I

"People have somehow been convinced a small amount of civilians being killed relative to the whole population is somehow a “genocide”" Per UN definition[1]: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: - Killing members of the group; - Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; - Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; - Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; - Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. If what is currently going on in Gaza isn't that then what is a genocide? [1] https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

riku_iki 3y ago
IDF doesn't have intent to destroy palestinian group, they have intent to destroy Hamas, so probably you only can call it genocide against Hamas. Genocide was in Ukraine for example, when Russia targeted powerplants during winter, which didn't have any military value.
- sschueller 3y ago
  That is propaganda for the west. If it where the case they would not be dropping 2000 pound bombs on civilians [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fP-J8m-BF0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fP-J8m-BF0 [NY Times: Visual Evidence Shows Israel Dropped Bombs Where It Ordered Gaza Civilians to Go ]
  - deleted 3y ago
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  - riku_iki 3y ago
    I don't think GBU-39 suggested by journalist to be used instead can target deep underground facilities.
- za3faran 3y ago
  Israel deliberately cut off power, water, and all crossings into Gaza for delivering food and aid. Even worse than what Russia did to the power plants. Literal collective punishment, another war crime to add to their list.
  - riku_iki 3y ago
    Israel cut power and water they provided before to the territory which attacked them. Sounds like many countries did such thing in the past.
    - meticulous_gal 3y ago
      [flagged]
    - Chris2048 3y ago
      > Sounds like many countries did such thing in the past. Can you give a good, relevant example?
      - riku_iki 3y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_over_Water_(Jordan_River) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_over_Water_(Jordan_River)
- nulld3v 3y ago
  I have supported Ukraine in the war for a long time but this claim I do not understand. Surely a power plant has military value right? If you destroy the power plant, you impact the country's economic and manufacturing ability which would definitely impact the country's ability to wage war. Obviously it also severely impacts civilians but many other "acceptable" actions in war do the same. In my head I imagine a war between a military run off of portable gas generators and a military run off of power plants. The difference in capability between the two would be huge! Is there something I'm missing here?
  - torton 3y ago
    I’m guessing you haven’t served. The front line military brings its own power, exactly portable gas/diesel generators, to run everything. If there is a usable power line with a transformer to a usable voltage and it hasn’t been yet damaged in the fighting, it’s amazing, but also fragile. A non trivial chunk of signal corps training is learning the ins and outs of standard generators, conventions and apparatus for distributing power, equipment for converting between various voltages used by equipment 1 to 80 years old, etc.
megaman821 3y ago
For contrast is there a conflict where people have been killed that doesn't meet that definition of genocide?
- Chris2048 3y ago
  Yes, any conflict where the aim is not to "destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group".
  - megaman821 3y ago
    Feel free to actually list a couple so we can dive into the specifics.
    - Chris2048 3y ago
      Feel free to do any of the work yourself also; This is a claim you are making isn't it? Ok, here is a list of armed conflicts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflict... Some are conflicted as being power struggles between groups of certain ethnicities; not all involve ethnic cleansing. Here's one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_drug_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_drug_war that seems not to have any relation to genocide.
irishloop 3y ago
Surely there's a scale? Technically, any "killing a member of a group" would be a genocide under this definition. Even if someone commits a mass murder against a group, we typically call it mass murder or a hate crime -- not genocide. So there has to be some idea of what genocide is -- what is the scale, what is the intent? Is it to wipe out a people? Or is it something else? 25,000 death is a lot. I'd say its a war crime. An atrocity, perhaps. But a genocide? Against a population of 2 million? Idk. Maybe? It seems that we have no common definition of the word
- sschueller 3y ago
  There is a very high risk of famine[1] and there is already an extreme food shortage. If the Israelis don't allow more food to enter and open more borders/allow see access a famine is guaranteed. The UN resolution that passed yesterday should prevent that but we have to wait and see if Israel accepts it. IMO starving a population is a genocide. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67799527 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67799527
llimos 3y ago
> with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group What is your proof of the intent? Hamas, on the other hand, make their genocidal intent very clear, every chance they get. "then what is a genocide?" That is.
deadbabe 3y ago
The target is Hamas. Some innocents are dying, but the intent isn’t to deliberately kill them. And there is no evidence any of those other criteria are even happening.
- sschueller 3y ago
  There is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fP-J8m-BF0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fP-J8m-BF0 , NY Times: Visual Evidence Shows Israel Dropped Bombs Where It Ordered Gaza Civilians to Go
  - riku_iki 3y ago
    > Where It Ordered Gaza Civilians to Go to be specific: actual content says Israel asked civilians to move to South Gaza, while claim is that they still targeted targets there.
  - dlubarov 3y ago
    So there are two explanations 1) Israel asked civilians to move south to be relatively safer, some important Hamas officers moved south along with them, and Israel targeted them. 2) The strikes weren't about Hamas officers, but just a deliberate killing of civilians. If you're saying this is evidence of genocide, that means you're discounting (1) and assuming (2)? Why? I'm not condoning (1), which suggests IDF is prioritizing its concerns (expediency etc) over civilian lives, but that clearly doesn't meet the definition of genocide.
- Xelbair 3y ago
  [flagged]
- Chris2048 3y ago
  > The target is Hamas "Two Thirds of Gaza War Dead Are Women and Children" -- https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15503.doc.htm https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15503.doc.htm
  - riku_iki 3y ago
tzs 3y ago
A couple weeks or so ago after some UN official was in the news for resigning in protest over what was happening in Gaza and called it a genocide, NPR interviewed someone who has actually prosecuted genocide cases and asked him if the UN official was right. According to the prosecutor he didn't think a case could be made. The key is that "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such" part. To prove that you need statements from officials that show they intended such destruction, and those need to be officials that also had the means to carry out or cause to be carried out that destruction. Prime ministers and generals, for example. If someone is going after legitimate military targets but a lot of members of some national, ethnical, racial or religious group is getting killed as collateral damage that is not enough to support a genocide charge. You need to statement of intent. He added that there is a genocide case that can be made in the region--against Hamas. They have stated their intent to wipe out a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, and thousands of their attacks on Israel over the last 20+ years have been directed at purely civilian targets.
- Qem 3y ago
  > According to the prosecutor he didn't think a case could be made. The key is that "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such" part. Moreno Ocampo, the former ICC prosecutor interviewed, actually said the opposite you're claiming. See https://www.aljazeera.com/program/upfront/2023/12/1/former-icc-chief-prosecutor-israels-siege-of-gaza-is-a-genocide https://www.aljazeera.com/program/upfront/2023/12/1/former-i...
  - tzs 3y ago
    That's a different prosecutor, Luis Moreno Ocampo, who was an ICC prosecutor. NPR talked to [1] David M. Crane, who is a founding chief prosecutor on the U.N. Special Court for Sierra Leone. [1] https://www.npr.org/2023/11/21/1214341050/prosecutor-weighs-in-on-whether-what-s-happening-in-gaza-is-genocide https://www.npr.org/2023/11/21/1214341050/prosecutor-weighs-...
    - kelnos 3y ago

riku_iki 3y ago

IDF doesn't have intent to destroy palestinian group, they have intent to destroy Hamas, so probably you only can call it genocide against Hamas. Genocide was in Ukraine for example, when Russia targeted powerplants during winter, which didn't have any military value.

sschueller 3y ago
That is propaganda for the west. If it where the case they would not be dropping 2000 pound bombs on civilians [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fP-J8m-BF0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fP-J8m-BF0 [NY Times: Visual Evidence Shows Israel Dropped Bombs Where It Ordered Gaza Civilians to Go ]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 3y ago
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- riku_iki 3y ago
  I don't think GBU-39 suggested by journalist to be used instead can target deep underground facilities.
za3faran 3y ago
Israel deliberately cut off power, water, and all crossings into Gaza for delivering food and aid. Even worse than what Russia did to the power plants. Literal collective punishment, another war crime to add to their list.
- riku_iki 3y ago
  Israel cut power and water they provided before to the territory which attacked them. Sounds like many countries did such thing in the past.
  - meticulous_gal 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - Chris2048 3y ago
    > Sounds like many countries did such thing in the past. Can you give a good, relevant example?
    - riku_iki 3y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_over_Water_(Jordan_River) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_over_Water_(Jordan_River)
nulld3v 3y ago
I have supported Ukraine in the war for a long time but this claim I do not understand. Surely a power plant has military value right? If you destroy the power plant, you impact the country's economic and manufacturing ability which would definitely impact the country's ability to wage war. Obviously it also severely impacts civilians but many other "acceptable" actions in war do the same. In my head I imagine a war between a military run off of portable gas generators and a military run off of power plants. The difference in capability between the two would be huge! Is there something I'm missing here?
- torton 3y ago
  I’m guessing you haven’t served. The front line military brings its own power, exactly portable gas/diesel generators, to run everything. If there is a usable power line with a transformer to a usable voltage and it hasn’t been yet damaged in the fighting, it’s amazing, but also fragile. A non trivial chunk of signal corps training is learning the ins and outs of standard generators, conventions and apparatus for distributing power, equipment for converting between various voltages used by equipment 1 to 80 years old, etc.

megaman821 3y ago

For contrast is there a conflict where people have been killed that doesn't meet that definition of genocide?

Chris2048 3y ago
Yes, any conflict where the aim is not to "destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group".
- megaman821 3y ago
  Feel free to actually list a couple so we can dive into the specifics.
  - Chris2048 3y ago
    Feel free to do any of the work yourself also; This is a claim you are making isn't it? Ok, here is a list of armed conflicts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflict... Some are conflicted as being power struggles between groups of certain ethnicities; not all involve ethnic cleansing. Here's one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_drug_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_drug_war that seems not to have any relation to genocide.

irishloop 3y ago

Surely there's a scale? Technically, any "killing a member of a group" would be a genocide under this definition. Even if someone commits a mass murder against a group, we typically call it mass murder or a hate crime -- not genocide. So there has to be some idea of what genocide is -- what is the scale, what is the intent? Is it to wipe out a people? Or is it something else? 25,000 death is a lot. I'd say its a war crime. An atrocity, perhaps. But a genocide? Against a population of 2 million? Idk. Maybe? It seems that we have no common definition of the word

sschueller 3y ago
There is a very high risk of famine[1] and there is already an extreme food shortage. If the Israelis don't allow more food to enter and open more borders/allow see access a famine is guaranteed. The UN resolution that passed yesterday should prevent that but we have to wait and see if Israel accepts it. IMO starving a population is a genocide. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67799527 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67799527

llimos 3y ago

> with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group What is your proof of the intent? Hamas, on the other hand, make their genocidal intent very clear, every chance they get. "then what is a genocide?" That is.

deadbabe 3y ago

The target is Hamas. Some innocents are dying, but the intent isn’t to deliberately kill them. And there is no evidence any of those other criteria are even happening.

sschueller 3y ago
There is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fP-J8m-BF0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fP-J8m-BF0 , NY Times: Visual Evidence Shows Israel Dropped Bombs Where It Ordered Gaza Civilians to Go
- riku_iki 3y ago
  > Where It Ordered Gaza Civilians to Go to be specific: actual content says Israel asked civilians to move to South Gaza, while claim is that they still targeted targets there.
- dlubarov 3y ago
  So there are two explanations 1) Israel asked civilians to move south to be relatively safer, some important Hamas officers moved south along with them, and Israel targeted them. 2) The strikes weren't about Hamas officers, but just a deliberate killing of civilians. If you're saying this is evidence of genocide, that means you're discounting (1) and assuming (2)? Why? I'm not condoning (1), which suggests IDF is prioritizing its concerns (expediency etc) over civilian lives, but that clearly doesn't meet the definition of genocide.
Xelbair 3y ago
[flagged]
Chris2048 3y ago
> The target is Hamas "Two Thirds of Gaza War Dead Are Women and Children" -- https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15503.doc.htm https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15503.doc.htm
- riku_iki 3y ago

tzs 3y ago

A couple weeks or so ago after some UN official was in the news for resigning in protest over what was happening in Gaza and called it a genocide, NPR interviewed someone who has actually prosecuted genocide cases and asked him if the UN official was right. According to the prosecutor he didn't think a case could be made. The key is that "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such" part. To prove that you need statements from officials that show they intended such destruction, and those need to be officials that also had the means to carry out or cause to be carried out that destruction. Prime ministers and generals, for example. If someone is going after legitimate military targets but a lot of members of some national, ethnical, racial or religious group is getting killed as collateral damage that is not enough to support a genocide charge. You need to statement of intent. He added that there is a genocide case that can be made in the region--against Hamas. They have stated their intent to wipe out a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, and thousands of their attacks on Israel over the last 20+ years have been directed at purely civilian targets.

Qem 3y ago
> According to the prosecutor he didn't think a case could be made. The key is that "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such" part. Moreno Ocampo, the former ICC prosecutor interviewed, actually said the opposite you're claiming. See https://www.aljazeera.com/program/upfront/2023/12/1/former-icc-chief-prosecutor-israels-siege-of-gaza-is-a-genocide https://www.aljazeera.com/program/upfront/2023/12/1/former-i...
- tzs 3y ago
  That's a different prosecutor, Luis Moreno Ocampo, who was an ICC prosecutor. NPR talked to [1] David M. Crane, who is a founding chief prosecutor on the U.N. Special Court for Sierra Leone. [1] https://www.npr.org/2023/11/21/1214341050/prosecutor-weighs-in-on-whether-what-s-happening-in-gaza-is-genocide https://www.npr.org/2023/11/21/1214341050/prosecutor-weighs-...
  - kelnos 3y ago