3 ms·

> one thing that /really/ helps already is kicking both units into intake when cooking on the hob with the hood fan extracting Not sure how much good regenerat

> one thing that /really/ helps already is kicking both units into intake when cooking on the hob with the hood fan extracting Not sure how much good regeneration is doing[0], but it sounds like it put a band-aid on your problem of inadequate make-up air for the vent! :D Do these standalone units recover heat only (HRV) or heat and humidity (ERV)? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38743885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38743885

mrspuratic 3y ago
I have no external heat recovery system, so yes it's exactly zero while I'm cooking - but a reasonable way to maintain air quality in an open plan, one of my goals. The house also has new external wall insulation and other upgrades, so it's rather more airtight than before (though not formally tested just yet). Otherwise they run in synchronised cycle mode for heat recovery and air movement. I'm not well versed in all the subtleties of theory and current technology, but I don't think regenerative and true ERV go together. If condensation forms in the unit on the exhaust cycle I'd guess does contribute a little to the recovered heat? These units are BSK Zephyrs, with one heat mass component (ceramic honeycomb) and one fan inline in a telescopic duct. To prevent condensation issues they are fitted with a 2° slope outwards, and a humidity sensor with settable thresholds to purge high humidity internal air at full rate (equivalent to about 1.2 air changes/h for me).
Open_erv 3y ago
They all are capable of doing so under some circumstances with limited efficiency, because as the air exits the house and cools down at some point water condenses out of the air onto the regenerator media. Then it evaps again when flow reverses. However if you want maximal efficiency you want to add some zeolite 3A adsorbent, which you can sort of do yourself I am pretty sure. You just put some through a coffee grinder, put the regenerator in a garbage bag with it and shake it to get the powder inside the regenerator. It's not idea but it'll certainly help. I tried this with a thermal wheel of comparable size with silica gel and measured the result with AHT10 sensors and it worked pretty good actually. Zeolite lasts longer but you need more. Obviously you gotta try not to get the powder everywhere by getting excess off etc.
- mrspuratic 3y ago
  Interesting. With EWI and internal insulation the telescopic duct is nearly maxed out as the total wall thickness is close to 500mm, but 50% of that is empty space. I though I might be able to get a secondary heat mass into that in future.
  - Open_erv 3y ago
    I don't like the telescopic ducts because they can leak into the wall cavity. There is nearly no point in adding more mass. It does increase efficiency but the typical regenerators are alumina which already have a lot of thermal mass. The problem is their surface area is too low. I made a simulator in python to evaluate various designs, and the efficiency of them is pretty poor. The main reason the fan reversal time is so long is the fans suck, they take a long time to accelerate, which affects average flow rate, the shorter the period the more time it takes to accelerate. Once the thermal mass of the "batch" of air is relatively small compared to the thermal mass of the regenerator, adding more thermal mass doesn't help. The reason you can't go to town with high surface area is viscous drag. The fans make a lot of noise when they have to work at high speed, which they have to do to produce higher pressures. Fan blade noise increases in proportion to the eigth power of blade velocity. So really really fast. So if you make the holes in the regenerator smaller and the walls thinner to increase surface area, you don't get enough flow. The usual units really hobble at the best of times. If you calculate how much energy (which increases linearly with flow*efficiency) they save a year, they usually actually cost more in amortized total cost of ownership than they save. The best thing is to redesign both the fan and regenerator, that's what I did. There is a nice fan that's produced by a german company that I'm trying to get samples of but they are super slow.
    - kragen 3y ago
      i think the solution to the viscous-drag problem is a fractal regenerator similar to a mammalian circulatory system, in which a branching tree of "artery" air passages feeds a set of "capillaries" distributed over a surface of high hausdorff-besicovitch dimension which separates the "arteries" from a second branching tree of "vein" air passages; this squares the circle of low air resistance (because the capillaries are short) with high heat flux (because the total surface area of the capillaries is large). if you have two counterflowing sets of capillaries instead of one, you have a rete mirabile recuperator obviously this structure is not feasible to manufacture by conventional processes, but you can 3-d print it cf. https://dercuano.github.io/notes/capillary-heat-exchanger.html https://dercuano.github.io/notes/capillary-heat-exchanger.ht... it seems crazy to me that people would use alumina as a regenerative medium for house ventilation; it's a pain to get into the shape you want, which makes it expensive in practice even though it's an abundant natural mineral. it does have an immense virtue as a regenerative medium, which is that it can withstand like 1750°, but if part of your house is over 1000° you have bigger problems to worry about than the efficiency of your hvac system. if you're trying to maximize the thermal mass of a stable solid per dollar, something like unfired clay is probably optimal, though it expands and contracts with humidity; lime mortar (quicklime and sand) avoids that problem. those are low thermal mass per kg; to optimize that, you'd probably want polypropylene instead (or paraffin wax, but it might melt) unfired clay has significant moisture-adsorbent ability too, which is why it expands and contracts with humidity. muriate of lime is commonly used as both a (deliquescent) desiccant and a flocculant for clay colloids used as ceramic glazes; i'm not sure to what extent clay with muriate of lime in it can function as a solid desiccant but maybe i'm missing some basic knowledge here, so plausibly these are stupid ideas; wikipedia is no substitute for experience

mrspuratic 3y ago

I have no external heat recovery system, so yes it's exactly zero while I'm cooking - but a reasonable way to maintain air quality in an open plan, one of my goals. The house also has new external wall insulation and other upgrades, so it's rather more airtight than before (though not formally tested just yet). Otherwise they run in synchronised cycle mode for heat recovery and air movement. I'm not well versed in all the subtleties of theory and current technology, but I don't think regenerative and true ERV go together. If condensation forms in the unit on the exhaust cycle I'd guess does contribute a little to the recovered heat? These units are BSK Zephyrs, with one heat mass component (ceramic honeycomb) and one fan inline in a telescopic duct. To prevent condensation issues they are fitted with a 2° slope outwards, and a humidity sensor with settable thresholds to purge high humidity internal air at full rate (equivalent to about 1.2 air changes/h for me).

Open_erv 3y ago

They all are capable of doing so under some circumstances with limited efficiency, because as the air exits the house and cools down at some point water condenses out of the air onto the regenerator media. Then it evaps again when flow reverses. However if you want maximal efficiency you want to add some zeolite 3A adsorbent, which you can sort of do yourself I am pretty sure. You just put some through a coffee grinder, put the regenerator in a garbage bag with it and shake it to get the powder inside the regenerator. It's not idea but it'll certainly help. I tried this with a thermal wheel of comparable size with silica gel and measured the result with AHT10 sensors and it worked pretty good actually. Zeolite lasts longer but you need more. Obviously you gotta try not to get the powder everywhere by getting excess off etc.

mrspuratic 3y ago
Interesting. With EWI and internal insulation the telescopic duct is nearly maxed out as the total wall thickness is close to 500mm, but 50% of that is empty space. I though I might be able to get a secondary heat mass into that in future.
- Open_erv 3y ago
  I don't like the telescopic ducts because they can leak into the wall cavity. There is nearly no point in adding more mass. It does increase efficiency but the typical regenerators are alumina which already have a lot of thermal mass. The problem is their surface area is too low. I made a simulator in python to evaluate various designs, and the efficiency of them is pretty poor. The main reason the fan reversal time is so long is the fans suck, they take a long time to accelerate, which affects average flow rate, the shorter the period the more time it takes to accelerate. Once the thermal mass of the "batch" of air is relatively small compared to the thermal mass of the regenerator, adding more thermal mass doesn't help. The reason you can't go to town with high surface area is viscous drag. The fans make a lot of noise when they have to work at high speed, which they have to do to produce higher pressures. Fan blade noise increases in proportion to the eigth power of blade velocity. So really really fast. So if you make the holes in the regenerator smaller and the walls thinner to increase surface area, you don't get enough flow. The usual units really hobble at the best of times. If you calculate how much energy (which increases linearly with flow*efficiency) they save a year, they usually actually cost more in amortized total cost of ownership than they save. The best thing is to redesign both the fan and regenerator, that's what I did. There is a nice fan that's produced by a german company that I'm trying to get samples of but they are super slow.
  - kragen 3y ago
    i think the solution to the viscous-drag problem is a fractal regenerator similar to a mammalian circulatory system, in which a branching tree of "artery" air passages feeds a set of "capillaries" distributed over a surface of high hausdorff-besicovitch dimension which separates the "arteries" from a second branching tree of "vein" air passages; this squares the circle of low air resistance (because the capillaries are short) with high heat flux (because the total surface area of the capillaries is large). if you have two counterflowing sets of capillaries instead of one, you have a rete mirabile recuperator obviously this structure is not feasible to manufacture by conventional processes, but you can 3-d print it cf. https://dercuano.github.io/notes/capillary-heat-exchanger.html https://dercuano.github.io/notes/capillary-heat-exchanger.ht... it seems crazy to me that people would use alumina as a regenerative medium for house ventilation; it's a pain to get into the shape you want, which makes it expensive in practice even though it's an abundant natural mineral. it does have an immense virtue as a regenerative medium, which is that it can withstand like 1750°, but if part of your house is over 1000° you have bigger problems to worry about than the efficiency of your hvac system. if you're trying to maximize the thermal mass of a stable solid per dollar, something like unfired clay is probably optimal, though it expands and contracts with humidity; lime mortar (quicklime and sand) avoids that problem. those are low thermal mass per kg; to optimize that, you'd probably want polypropylene instead (or paraffin wax, but it might melt) unfired clay has significant moisture-adsorbent ability too, which is why it expands and contracts with humidity. muriate of lime is commonly used as both a (deliquescent) desiccant and a flocculant for clay colloids used as ceramic glazes; i'm not sure to what extent clay with muriate of lime in it can function as a solid desiccant but maybe i'm missing some basic knowledge here, so plausibly these are stupid ideas; wikipedia is no substitute for experience