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I have no clear position in this question (my usual vice). Situation in Sweden. 1. Wolves kill wild animals. This is a good thing, nature doing its work and we

I have no clear position in this question (my usual vice). Situation in Sweden. 1. Wolves kill wild animals. This is a good thing, nature doing its work and we have a problem for example with uncontrollably growing boar polulation. 2. Wolves kill sheep. Major problem for sheep owners. Need expensive fencing. I think if they can get inside a fence they will not kill only one and be happy with it. They will kill as many as the can (needs source though). 3. Wolves kill reindeer. Major problem for the owners, you cant really fence them in. 4. Wolves kill dogs. This happens occasionally in Sweden. But in the end it is a democracy problem. Most people live in cities but they are not affected by wolves. Who should decide? Or is it the wolves that should decide as i think Naess, a bit cowardly IMO, argues?

Gys 3y ago
> They will kill as many as the can I think that is logical? Prey normally is in the open and will run away. Killing a few more makes sense because the wolf can come back later to eat again. Only because of the fence the prey cannot flee and therefore all will be killed. And the next day the owner will remove all the dead.
mytailorisrich 3y ago
At least in some countries if a wolf kills a sheep the farmer is compensated. For instance, in France the government will pay the value of the animal, plus compensation for stress caused to the herd, plus any vet costs, plus compensation for any damages to fences. So much so that the system is abused. But this is not the point here. The point is to learn to co-exist with the natural world instead of destroying anything we don't like or profit from.
- fifilura 3y ago
  Yes but "being compensated for stress caused" tells the story that finding the animals you care for killed by a wolf is not exactly something you wish for.
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    Stress to the herd, not to the farmer... Possibly because that might lower the value of the other animals. Sheep farmers breed sheep for slaughter. I don't think the death of a sheep is particularly sentimental to them.
    - fifilura 3y ago
      Maybe? Or maybe it is just you who are a different kind of farmer?
- Log_out_ 3y ago
  Have you checked the compensation? It is a mockery. Your tractor breaks into a beavers lodge breaking the axle. You get 50€ and appear in the local news as "compensated". Tons of farmers would refuse that addition of insult to injury if they could.
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    As a Frenchman myself, I find it very French to complain that compensation isn't enough while others might just think that you're lucky to get compensation at all ;)
    - Log_out_ 3y ago
      It's deevaluating what you own by laws that is very funny. Wonder what would happen if someone devalued the house you are in by declaring it unfit for habitation.
      - Log_out_ 3y ago
        Let me pour that late over that Mac and give you 10€ to hammer that point home.
ffgjgf1 3y ago
> Need expensive fencing. Or they can get guard dog who will deter almost all wolves unless they are starving
- fifilura 3y ago
  And if the wolves were starving you can just start over with a new dog.
  - ffgjgf1 3y ago
    So you’re certain that a wolf would easily kill an Caucasian Shepherd or a Great Pyrenees? Because I’m not and a wolf would have to be extremely desperate to try. Anyway if wolves were starving there are other issues in the ecosystem that need to be addressed.
    - fifilura 3y ago
      No, I am not certain.
Log_out_ 3y ago
It's a hunter problem, they need shovels. Delusional city people making laws trampling economic minorities like farmers, can make all the laws they want but what happens on the ground might be very different.

Gys 3y ago

> They will kill as many as the can I think that is logical? Prey normally is in the open and will run away. Killing a few more makes sense because the wolf can come back later to eat again. Only because of the fence the prey cannot flee and therefore all will be killed. And the next day the owner will remove all the dead.

mytailorisrich 3y ago

At least in some countries if a wolf kills a sheep the farmer is compensated. For instance, in France the government will pay the value of the animal, plus compensation for stress caused to the herd, plus any vet costs, plus compensation for any damages to fences. So much so that the system is abused. But this is not the point here. The point is to learn to co-exist with the natural world instead of destroying anything we don't like or profit from.

fifilura 3y ago
Yes but "being compensated for stress caused" tells the story that finding the animals you care for killed by a wolf is not exactly something you wish for.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  Stress to the herd, not to the farmer... Possibly because that might lower the value of the other animals. Sheep farmers breed sheep for slaughter. I don't think the death of a sheep is particularly sentimental to them.
  - fifilura 3y ago
    Maybe? Or maybe it is just you who are a different kind of farmer?
Log_out_ 3y ago
Have you checked the compensation? It is a mockery. Your tractor breaks into a beavers lodge breaking the axle. You get 50€ and appear in the local news as "compensated". Tons of farmers would refuse that addition of insult to injury if they could.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  As a Frenchman myself, I find it very French to complain that compensation isn't enough while others might just think that you're lucky to get compensation at all ;)
  - Log_out_ 3y ago
    It's deevaluating what you own by laws that is very funny. Wonder what would happen if someone devalued the house you are in by declaring it unfit for habitation.
    - Log_out_ 3y ago
      Let me pour that late over that Mac and give you 10€ to hammer that point home.

ffgjgf1 3y ago

> Need expensive fencing. Or they can get guard dog who will deter almost all wolves unless they are starving

fifilura 3y ago
And if the wolves were starving you can just start over with a new dog.
- ffgjgf1 3y ago
  So you’re certain that a wolf would easily kill an Caucasian Shepherd or a Great Pyrenees? Because I’m not and a wolf would have to be extremely desperate to try. Anyway if wolves were starving there are other issues in the ecosystem that need to be addressed.
  - fifilura 3y ago
    No, I am not certain.

Log_out_ 3y ago

It's a hunter problem, they need shovels. Delusional city people making laws trampling economic minorities like farmers, can make all the laws they want but what happens on the ground might be very different.