5 ms·

Europe has a wolf problem, and a late Norwegian philosopher had the solution

23 points by zeristor 3y ago

baq 3y ago
My European city has a boar problem…
- Log_out_ 3y ago
  Good old learning by not policing..
chasil 3y ago
'Næss argued that all beings, whether human or nonhuman, have an equal right to exist and flourish, a principle he called “biospherical egalitarianism”.' Doesn't the prey of the wolf share the same right? If so, which claim is superior? Isn't a better position that the wolf contributes to a healthy ecosystem, as was found when they were reintroduced to Yellowstone? https://www.geographyrealm.com/wolf-reintroduction-yellowstone/ https://www.geographyrealm.com/wolf-reintroduction-yellowsto... 'It may also play an effective role in countering the often-baseless fear and hysteria around wolves (Næss blamed the brothers Grimm for the animals’ bad public image).' Proper care of wild wolves must involve vaccination for rabies, as 78% of attacks on humans involved infection. https://wolf.org/wolf-info/factsvsfiction/are-wolves-dangerous-to-humans/ https://wolf.org/wolf-info/factsvsfiction/are-wolves-dangero...
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  Natural predation is irrelevant to the argument. Wolves and their preys co-exist and "equal right to exist" is more fundamental: they have the right to live their lives in the natural world as opposed to being exterminated. They have "the right to be there" as also written in the article.
  - eesmith 3y ago
    What of the right of guinea worms to live in their natural world and not be exterminated?
    - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
      It seems to be part of human nature to care mostly about large cute animals. Nobody seems to care about invertebrates.
- 4death4 3y ago
  My reading is that the “right to exist” applies to the species as a whole, not individual animals.
- fastasucan 3y ago
  If you are a deer that gets eaten by a wolf you have excisted, but if wolves is eradicated they have not.
amadeuspagel 3y ago
Wolfs are predators. A wolf kills about 20 deers every year. I understand that some people feel it's romantic to have these animals roam around, but to congratulate yourself on your empathy for allowing this to happen really is obscene.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  This is the natural order of things. Without predators deer/boar/etc populations explode and need controlling through hunting. This is exactly why hunters are unhappy where wolves have come back: the wolves eat the animals the hunters want to shoot.
  - amadeuspagel 3y ago
    Why is it more natural for wolfs to kill deer then for hunters to kill deer and wolfs?
    - ffgjgf1 3y ago
      Somebody has kill deer to avoid overpopulation. Humans kill deer for sport, wolves kill to eat them. Also wolves have a very positive effect on the ecosystem as whole. Just look up what happened in Yellowstone (of course you won’t)..
      - amadeuspagel 3y ago
        Humans also eat deer. What positive effect do wolves have on the ecosystem, other then killing deer, which humans could do just as well?
        zeristor 3y ago
        the reduction in grazing pressure from deer, and the fact that deer avoid wolves gives trees the chance to grow. Deer eat the shoots of trees, and so enable a more reach ecological system to be sustained.
fifilura 3y ago
I have no clear position in this question (my usual vice). Situation in Sweden. 1. Wolves kill wild animals. This is a good thing, nature doing its work and we have a problem for example with uncontrollably growing boar polulation. 2. Wolves kill sheep. Major problem for sheep owners. Need expensive fencing. I think if they can get inside a fence they will not kill only one and be happy with it. They will kill as many as the can (needs source though). 3. Wolves kill reindeer. Major problem for the owners, you cant really fence them in. 4. Wolves kill dogs. This happens occasionally in Sweden. But in the end it is a democracy problem. Most people live in cities but they are not affected by wolves. Who should decide? Or is it the wolves that should decide as i think Naess, a bit cowardly IMO, argues?
- Gys 3y ago
  > They will kill as many as the can I think that is logical? Prey normally is in the open and will run away. Killing a few more makes sense because the wolf can come back later to eat again. Only because of the fence the prey cannot flee and therefore all will be killed. And the next day the owner will remove all the dead.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  At least in some countries if a wolf kills a sheep the farmer is compensated. For instance, in France the government will pay the value of the animal, plus compensation for stress caused to the herd, plus any vet costs, plus compensation for any damages to fences. So much so that the system is abused. But this is not the point here. The point is to learn to co-exist with the natural world instead of destroying anything we don't like or profit from.
  - fifilura 3y ago
    Yes but "being compensated for stress caused" tells the story that finding the animals you care for killed by a wolf is not exactly something you wish for.
    - mytailorisrich 3y ago
nkurz 3y ago
Here's the full Naess and Mysterud paper linked from the article: Philosophy of Wolf Policies I: General Principles and Preliminary Exploration of Selected Norms https://sci-hub.ee/10.1111/j.1523-1739.1987.tb00005.x https://sci-hub.ee/10.1111/j.1523-1739.1987.tb00005.x

23 points by zeristor 3y ago

baq 3y ago

My European city has a boar problem…

Log_out_ 3y ago
Good old learning by not policing..

chasil 3y ago

'Næss argued that all beings, whether human or nonhuman, have an equal right to exist and flourish, a principle he called “biospherical egalitarianism”.' Doesn't the prey of the wolf share the same right? If so, which claim is superior? Isn't a better position that the wolf contributes to a healthy ecosystem, as was found when they were reintroduced to Yellowstone? https://www.geographyrealm.com/wolf-reintroduction-yellowstone/ https://www.geographyrealm.com/wolf-reintroduction-yellowsto... 'It may also play an effective role in countering the often-baseless fear and hysteria around wolves (Næss blamed the brothers Grimm for the animals’ bad public image).' Proper care of wild wolves must involve vaccination for rabies, as 78% of attacks on humans involved infection. https://wolf.org/wolf-info/factsvsfiction/are-wolves-dangerous-to-humans/ https://wolf.org/wolf-info/factsvsfiction/are-wolves-dangero...

mytailorisrich 3y ago
Natural predation is irrelevant to the argument. Wolves and their preys co-exist and "equal right to exist" is more fundamental: they have the right to live their lives in the natural world as opposed to being exterminated. They have "the right to be there" as also written in the article.
- eesmith 3y ago
  What of the right of guinea worms to live in their natural world and not be exterminated?
  - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
    It seems to be part of human nature to care mostly about large cute animals. Nobody seems to care about invertebrates.
4death4 3y ago
My reading is that the “right to exist” applies to the species as a whole, not individual animals.
fastasucan 3y ago
If you are a deer that gets eaten by a wolf you have excisted, but if wolves is eradicated they have not.

amadeuspagel 3y ago

Wolfs are predators. A wolf kills about 20 deers every year. I understand that some people feel it's romantic to have these animals roam around, but to congratulate yourself on your empathy for allowing this to happen really is obscene.

mytailorisrich 3y ago
This is the natural order of things. Without predators deer/boar/etc populations explode and need controlling through hunting. This is exactly why hunters are unhappy where wolves have come back: the wolves eat the animals the hunters want to shoot.
- amadeuspagel 3y ago
  Why is it more natural for wolfs to kill deer then for hunters to kill deer and wolfs?
  - ffgjgf1 3y ago
    Somebody has kill deer to avoid overpopulation. Humans kill deer for sport, wolves kill to eat them. Also wolves have a very positive effect on the ecosystem as whole. Just look up what happened in Yellowstone (of course you won’t)..
    - amadeuspagel 3y ago
      Humans also eat deer. What positive effect do wolves have on the ecosystem, other then killing deer, which humans could do just as well?
      - zeristor 3y ago
        the reduction in grazing pressure from deer, and the fact that deer avoid wolves gives trees the chance to grow. Deer eat the shoots of trees, and so enable a more reach ecological system to be sustained.

fifilura 3y ago

I have no clear position in this question (my usual vice). Situation in Sweden. 1. Wolves kill wild animals. This is a good thing, nature doing its work and we have a problem for example with uncontrollably growing boar polulation. 2. Wolves kill sheep. Major problem for sheep owners. Need expensive fencing. I think if they can get inside a fence they will not kill only one and be happy with it. They will kill as many as the can (needs source though). 3. Wolves kill reindeer. Major problem for the owners, you cant really fence them in. 4. Wolves kill dogs. This happens occasionally in Sweden. But in the end it is a democracy problem. Most people live in cities but they are not affected by wolves. Who should decide? Or is it the wolves that should decide as i think Naess, a bit cowardly IMO, argues?

Gys 3y ago
> They will kill as many as the can I think that is logical? Prey normally is in the open and will run away. Killing a few more makes sense because the wolf can come back later to eat again. Only because of the fence the prey cannot flee and therefore all will be killed. And the next day the owner will remove all the dead.
mytailorisrich 3y ago
At least in some countries if a wolf kills a sheep the farmer is compensated. For instance, in France the government will pay the value of the animal, plus compensation for stress caused to the herd, plus any vet costs, plus compensation for any damages to fences. So much so that the system is abused. But this is not the point here. The point is to learn to co-exist with the natural world instead of destroying anything we don't like or profit from.
- fifilura 3y ago
  Yes but "being compensated for stress caused" tells the story that finding the animals you care for killed by a wolf is not exactly something you wish for.
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago

nkurz 3y ago

Here's the full Naess and Mysterud paper linked from the article: Philosophy of Wolf Policies I: General Principles and Preliminary Exploration of Selected Norms https://sci-hub.ee/10.1111/j.1523-1739.1987.tb00005.x https://sci-hub.ee/10.1111/j.1523-1739.1987.tb00005.x