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> Again, missed the point.... If your absurd claim that Waymo's trials provide just three relevant data points is not part of "the point", then why did you mak

> Again, missed the point.... If your absurd claim that Waymo's trials provide just three relevant data points is not part of "the point", then why did you make it? It does not give us any confidence in the proposition that "the point" has been well thought-out. Furthermore, "the point" keeps shifting: recently it shifted to raising doubts about the provenance of the data whipped up from a six-year-old article. At this point, I feel that a quote is appropriate: "the ability of people to consistently miss/twist the point to fit their own predetermined viewpoint is tiresome."

bumby 3y ago
As I've said elsewhere, my point was part of a larger context. My point was about how important trust is to adoption of AV tech. That goes well beyond the Waymo cases illustrated. The sample size and quality of the data illustrates the need for a broader context of information needed, in addition to the need to understand that humans don't build trust simply from statistical arguments. And in the vein of trying to steel-man your position, I gave the comment to ChatGPT to see if it, too, considered the central point a claim about AV having a "death wish." Here's what it said: "The statement highlights that some AI tasks, while effective, may deviate from conventional practices. An example is given where the Department of Defense (DoD) employed a company to train a dogfighting simulator using reinforcement learning (RL). Pilots were surprised by the simulator breaking established best practices and behaving recklessly, akin to a pilot with a disregard for safety. The implication is that while such behavior might be advantageous in a military context, it may pose risks or be unsuitable in civilian settings, such as public roads. The statement underscores the need to carefully consider and tailor AI applications to specific contexts and objectives." So it seemed to recognize that the central point is that "the behavior" in question is "breaking established best practices" and that the "implication is that while such behavior might be advantageous in a military context, it may pose risks or be unsuitable in civilian settings". There's probably some irony in the fact that AI did better at a reading task.
- dcow 3y ago
  Sounds like you’re arguing that “AI” is better at navigating complex human discussion than the multiple humans in this thread? I’ll take that conclusion, I guess (whether you ultimately believe yourself or someone else arguing against your own points doesn't really matter, does it). Really the only thing left is for you to take a flight to SF and watch the Waymo cars drive. Or ride in one if you dare.
- mannykannot 3y ago
  Impressive as LLMs are, they lack a theory of mind and are inferior to humans in parsing meaning from statements. This dispute is not over a difficult or subtle issue: all the people who have responded in this thread see clearly the obvious and unequivocal reading - and, in your own example, ChatGPT also does! It has identified the tacit subject of the sentence "Possibly good in war, maybe not so good on a public road" as the specific military system, with behavior explicitly described as like having a death wish, that is the only topic of the preceding sentence. For one thing, the phrase 'possibly good in war' makes no sense in the reading you are trying to pass off: why, out of nowhere, did the needs of the military appear? And unexpected behavior is not something desirable in general in military systems, any more than elsewhere - it would take very special circumstances and a specific sort of behavior for that proposition to even be entertained. We can see, therefore, that dcow was right to respond 'your comparison is RL dogfighting?...' and 'Modern AVs are not driving like they have a death wish by any stretch of the imagination...' Oh, and next time you invoke ChatGPT's response, include the prompt, verbatim, like this for example: Prompt: In the statement 'That’s true, but also one of the selling points of some AI tasks. As a non-hypothetical example, the DoD hired a company to train a software dogfighting simulator with RL. What surprised the pilots was how many "best practices" it broke and how it essentially behaved like a pilot with a death wish. Possibly good in war, maybe not so good on a public road.', what is being called ' not so good on a public road'? Response: In the statement, the phrase "not so good on a public road" refers to the behavior of the software dogfighting simulator trained with reinforcement learning (RL). The implication is that the simulator, which exhibited behavior contrary to conventional "best practices" and behaved like a pilot with a "death wish," might not be suitable or safe for use in a public road scenario. This suggests a concern about the potentially risky or unpredictable behavior of the AI system in a real-world, civilian setting such as driving on public roads. What we have in this discussion is a motte-and-bailey fallacy, as we can see in your response to my first post here, which was: None of these three cases involved the Waymo car behaving in ways that are not that uncommon among human drivers, and our theory of mind does not make us nearly-infallible predictors of what another driver is going to do. Your objection becomes essentially hypothetical unless these cars are behaving in ways that are both outside of the norms established by the driving public, and dangerous." Your reply, in outline, goes like this: > That's true... Here we are in the motte, where you nominally accept that the relevance of your concern, which is not unreasonable in itself, is constrained by the extensive testing that has been performed by Waymo so far... > ...but... Here we enter The bailey, where we are supposed to turn our attention to an unrelated system, which was found, on testing, to have alarming unexpected behavior. The bailey has become a place where Waymo has been curating the data to the point where we simply don’t have the slightest idea whether there’s dangerous behavior outside of the human norms lurking in Waymo cars. It has also become a place where all of Waymo’s extensive testing has produced just three data points against this view. I must say that it seems generous of you to concede even three, if Waymo is curating the data to the extent you imply.

bumby 3y ago

As I've said elsewhere, my point was part of a larger context. My point was about how important trust is to adoption of AV tech. That goes well beyond the Waymo cases illustrated. The sample size and quality of the data illustrates the need for a broader context of information needed, in addition to the need to understand that humans don't build trust simply from statistical arguments. And in the vein of trying to steel-man your position, I gave the comment to ChatGPT to see if it, too, considered the central point a claim about AV having a "death wish." Here's what it said: "The statement highlights that some AI tasks, while effective, may deviate from conventional practices. An example is given where the Department of Defense (DoD) employed a company to train a dogfighting simulator using reinforcement learning (RL). Pilots were surprised by the simulator breaking established best practices and behaving recklessly, akin to a pilot with a disregard for safety. The implication is that while such behavior might be advantageous in a military context, it may pose risks or be unsuitable in civilian settings, such as public roads. The statement underscores the need to carefully consider and tailor AI applications to specific contexts and objectives." So it seemed to recognize that the central point is that "the behavior" in question is "breaking established best practices" and that the "implication is that while such behavior might be advantageous in a military context, it may pose risks or be unsuitable in civilian settings". There's probably some irony in the fact that AI did better at a reading task.

dcow 3y ago
Sounds like you’re arguing that “AI” is better at navigating complex human discussion than the multiple humans in this thread? I’ll take that conclusion, I guess (whether you ultimately believe yourself or someone else arguing against your own points doesn't really matter, does it). Really the only thing left is for you to take a flight to SF and watch the Waymo cars drive. Or ride in one if you dare.
mannykannot 3y ago
Impressive as LLMs are, they lack a theory of mind and are inferior to humans in parsing meaning from statements. This dispute is not over a difficult or subtle issue: all the people who have responded in this thread see clearly the obvious and unequivocal reading - and, in your own example, ChatGPT also does! It has identified the tacit subject of the sentence "Possibly good in war, maybe not so good on a public road" as the specific military system, with behavior explicitly described as like having a death wish, that is the only topic of the preceding sentence. For one thing, the phrase 'possibly good in war' makes no sense in the reading you are trying to pass off: why, out of nowhere, did the needs of the military appear? And unexpected behavior is not something desirable in general in military systems, any more than elsewhere - it would take very special circumstances and a specific sort of behavior for that proposition to even be entertained. We can see, therefore, that dcow was right to respond 'your comparison is RL dogfighting?...' and 'Modern AVs are not driving like they have a death wish by any stretch of the imagination...' Oh, and next time you invoke ChatGPT's response, include the prompt, verbatim, like this for example: Prompt: In the statement 'That’s true, but also one of the selling points of some AI tasks. As a non-hypothetical example, the DoD hired a company to train a software dogfighting simulator with RL. What surprised the pilots was how many "best practices" it broke and how it essentially behaved like a pilot with a death wish. Possibly good in war, maybe not so good on a public road.', what is being called ' not so good on a public road'? Response: In the statement, the phrase "not so good on a public road" refers to the behavior of the software dogfighting simulator trained with reinforcement learning (RL). The implication is that the simulator, which exhibited behavior contrary to conventional "best practices" and behaved like a pilot with a "death wish," might not be suitable or safe for use in a public road scenario. This suggests a concern about the potentially risky or unpredictable behavior of the AI system in a real-world, civilian setting such as driving on public roads. What we have in this discussion is a motte-and-bailey fallacy, as we can see in your response to my first post here, which was: None of these three cases involved the Waymo car behaving in ways that are not that uncommon among human drivers, and our theory of mind does not make us nearly-infallible predictors of what another driver is going to do. Your objection becomes essentially hypothetical unless these cars are behaving in ways that are both outside of the norms established by the driving public, and dangerous." Your reply, in outline, goes like this: > That's true... Here we are in the motte, where you nominally accept that the relevance of your concern, which is not unreasonable in itself, is constrained by the extensive testing that has been performed by Waymo so far... > ...but... Here we enter The bailey, where we are supposed to turn our attention to an unrelated system, which was found, on testing, to have alarming unexpected behavior. The bailey has become a place where Waymo has been curating the data to the point where we simply don’t have the slightest idea whether there’s dangerous behavior outside of the human norms lurking in Waymo cars. It has also become a place where all of Waymo’s extensive testing has produced just three data points against this view. I must say that it seems generous of you to concede even three, if Waymo is curating the data to the extent you imply.