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You quoted the part I was referring to: > [Tesla said] it had inspected the vehicle and determined that the cause was “a prior external influenced damage to th

You quoted the part I was referring to: > [Tesla said] it had inspected the vehicle and determined that the cause was “a prior external influenced damage to the front-right suspension.” And then Jain ended up paying the bill. That is a critically important data point which _suggests that he had reason to believe_ his actions caused the damage. I repeat: Whether the owner’s actions actually did exceed a reasonable expectation of durability isn’t something we can speculate on here because we don’t have the information. It's possible that Jain didn't damage the car. But it's also possible that he did, and this damage was immediately apparent the moment that a technician lifted the car for a proper inspection. We don't know anything about the initial inspection which led to the interim diagnosis of manufacturing defect. It might have been a guess by someone who didn't even lay eyes on the car. The point is — We. Don't. Know.

clouddrover 3y ago
[flagged]
clouddrover 3y ago
> That is a critically important data point which _suggests that he had reason to believe_ his actions caused the damage. No, all it suggests is that he didn't know how to stand up for himself. He went along with allowing his insurance to pay for it. To quote the Reuters report again: > Jain is one of tens of thousands of Tesla owners who have experienced premature failures of suspension or steering parts, according to a Reuters review of thousands of Tesla documents. The chronic failures, many in relatively new vehicles, date back at least seven years and stretch across Tesla’s model lineup and across the globe, from China to the United States to Europe, according to the records and interviews with more than 20 customers and nine former Tesla managers or service technicians. People struggle to integrate what's true. Take you, for example. You can't get your mind around the idea that Tesla is in fact a grubby company that lies routinely. Tesla keeps lying because it can rely on people like you who simply refuse to believe that Tesla lies. Tesla lies about full self-driving. Look, in 2016 Tesla said "as of today, all Tesla vehicles produced in our factory – including Model 3 – will have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver." That was a lie : https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now-have-full-self-driving-hardware https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now... 1 million robotaxis were promised for 2020. That was a lie: https://www.thedrive.com/news/38129/elon-musk-promised-1-million-tesla-robotaxis-by-the-end-of-2020-where-are-they https://www.thedrive.com/news/38129/elon-musk-promised-1-mil... Tesla's timeline of full self-driving lies: https://motherfrunker.ca/fsd/ https://motherfrunker.ca/fsd/ Tesla even lies about things as trivial quarter mile times: https://insideevs.com/news/699260/tesla-cybertruck-porsche-race/ https://insideevs.com/news/699260/tesla-cybertruck-porsche-r... Lying is built into Tesla's DNA as a company. The fish does indeed rot from the head. > We. Don't. Know. We do. You just don't want to Believe it.
- frumper 3y ago
  It’s quite possible you’re right. It might even be likely. But likely isn’t knowing. This wouldn’t be the first story on the internet without all the facts. I can’t imagine many people would walk away from $12k so easily. Also, why would the insurance pay for it? They’d tell him it’s under warranty and get Tesla to pay for it.
  - clouddrover 3y ago
    Insurance companies go by the reports from repairers. They don't investigate every individual case themselves.
    - frumper 3y ago
      Insurance companies send a claims adjuster to inspect it themselves. They aren’t just going to fix your car unless they think it’s covered because of some type of accident. It sounds like they agreed with Tesla at their expense.
      - clouddrover 3y ago
        Only when they decide it's worth their time. They don't send in loss adjusters for every case. Just think about what you're saying logically. Have a read about how it works: https://www.morganclark.co.uk/loss-adjusters-your-questions-answered/ https://www.morganclark.co.uk/loss-adjusters-your-questions-...
        frumper 3y ago
        I've never dealt with car/home insurance where they didnt send someone. Claims far less than what this was.
        clouddrover 3y ago
        Hooray. Your individual experience is not universal.
yread 3y ago
So what should he have done? Small claims court?
- simondotau 3y ago
  The obvious first thing, if you genuinely believe a vehicle manufacturer is lying to you, is get it inspected by an independent third party. It's a suspension arm, after all. Any decent mechanic could assess it. I have no idea about what actually happened here. But the part of the story which makes me slightly more inclined to believe the Tesla service technician is that they did initially class it as a manufacturing defect prior to proper inspection. This demonstrates a willingness to accept blame. It was only after a proper inspection that it was re-classed as customer caused. If blaming customers for manufacturing defects was company policy, that's not how it would have played out.
  - clouddrover 3y ago
    > If blaming customers for manufacturing defects was company policy, that's not how it would have played out. Your Beliefs don't matter. To quote the Reuters article yet again: > The control-arm problem continued for years, across Tesla’s model lineup. The automaker replaced front upper control arms on about 120,000 cars globally from January 2021 through March 2022, according to a Reuters analysis of repair records included in the Tesla documents. Most of the replacements came on the Model 3, Tesla’s least expensive vehicle. Many of the customer complaints were for noise. And: > Former service managers and technicians in Norway, the country with the most Teslas per capita, said in interviews that they were inundated with angry customers complaining of early control-arm failures. They said that tension increased as the automaker, starting in 2017, told service employees to push the cost of the frequent and repeated failures onto customers to cut warranty and goodwill repair costs. One manager said he was forced out after resisting the company’s push to blame customers for the failures of faulty control arms. “I said: ‘Now, we have to quit talking bullshit,’” he recalled. A service technician said he started in 2018 and quit a year later over the issue. “I wasn’t doing anything else than just constantly changing those control arms,” he said. And on half shaft failures: > One repair analysis showed the company replaced nearly 66,000 half shafts between January 2021 and March 2022. Customers paid for about 10% of those repairs. > More than one engineer made a point of saying the issue had nothing to do with damage caused by customers. Engineer Anastasia Skolariki, who was troubleshooting repair problems and customer complaints for Tesla in Europe, wrote in May 2020 to other engineers and technicians that the problem was a design issue “and not abusive behavior from the customer side.” The company needed to cover repairs for cars under warranty, she said, “no matter how many times the vehicle comes to Service with the same issue.” And here's an exciting half shaft failure: > In 2019, a Tesla engineer in Shanghai flagged a failure on a brand-new Model S with 160 kilometers (99 miles) on it. The car’s rear left half shaft had broken into three pieces when the owner stepped on the accelerator; one of the pieces pierced the electric-drive unit that powers the car. You should have a proper read of the Reuters article: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-musk-steering-suspension/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-mu... You're clearly not taking it in.

clouddrover 3y ago

[flagged]

clouddrover 3y ago

> That is a critically important data point which _suggests that he had reason to believe_ his actions caused the damage. No, all it suggests is that he didn't know how to stand up for himself. He went along with allowing his insurance to pay for it. To quote the Reuters report again: > Jain is one of tens of thousands of Tesla owners who have experienced premature failures of suspension or steering parts, according to a Reuters review of thousands of Tesla documents. The chronic failures, many in relatively new vehicles, date back at least seven years and stretch across Tesla’s model lineup and across the globe, from China to the United States to Europe, according to the records and interviews with more than 20 customers and nine former Tesla managers or service technicians. People struggle to integrate what's true. Take you, for example. You can't get your mind around the idea that Tesla is in fact a grubby company that lies routinely. Tesla keeps lying because it can rely on people like you who simply refuse to believe that Tesla lies. Tesla lies about full self-driving. Look, in 2016 Tesla said "as of today, all Tesla vehicles produced in our factory – including Model 3 – will have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver." That was a lie : https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now-have-full-self-driving-hardware https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now... 1 million robotaxis were promised for 2020. That was a lie: https://www.thedrive.com/news/38129/elon-musk-promised-1-million-tesla-robotaxis-by-the-end-of-2020-where-are-they https://www.thedrive.com/news/38129/elon-musk-promised-1-mil... Tesla's timeline of full self-driving lies: https://motherfrunker.ca/fsd/ https://motherfrunker.ca/fsd/ Tesla even lies about things as trivial quarter mile times: https://insideevs.com/news/699260/tesla-cybertruck-porsche-race/ https://insideevs.com/news/699260/tesla-cybertruck-porsche-r... Lying is built into Tesla's DNA as a company. The fish does indeed rot from the head. > We. Don't. Know. We do. You just don't want to Believe it.

frumper 3y ago
It’s quite possible you’re right. It might even be likely. But likely isn’t knowing. This wouldn’t be the first story on the internet without all the facts. I can’t imagine many people would walk away from $12k so easily. Also, why would the insurance pay for it? They’d tell him it’s under warranty and get Tesla to pay for it.
- clouddrover 3y ago
  Insurance companies go by the reports from repairers. They don't investigate every individual case themselves.
  - frumper 3y ago
    Insurance companies send a claims adjuster to inspect it themselves. They aren’t just going to fix your car unless they think it’s covered because of some type of accident. It sounds like they agreed with Tesla at their expense.
    - clouddrover 3y ago
      Only when they decide it's worth their time. They don't send in loss adjusters for every case. Just think about what you're saying logically. Have a read about how it works: https://www.morganclark.co.uk/loss-adjusters-your-questions-answered/ https://www.morganclark.co.uk/loss-adjusters-your-questions-...
      - frumper 3y ago
        I've never dealt with car/home insurance where they didnt send someone. Claims far less than what this was.
        clouddrover 3y ago
        Hooray. Your individual experience is not universal.

yread 3y ago

So what should he have done? Small claims court?

simondotau 3y ago
The obvious first thing, if you genuinely believe a vehicle manufacturer is lying to you, is get it inspected by an independent third party. It's a suspension arm, after all. Any decent mechanic could assess it. I have no idea about what actually happened here. But the part of the story which makes me slightly more inclined to believe the Tesla service technician is that they did initially class it as a manufacturing defect prior to proper inspection. This demonstrates a willingness to accept blame. It was only after a proper inspection that it was re-classed as customer caused. If blaming customers for manufacturing defects was company policy, that's not how it would have played out.
- clouddrover 3y ago
  > If blaming customers for manufacturing defects was company policy, that's not how it would have played out. Your Beliefs don't matter. To quote the Reuters article yet again: > The control-arm problem continued for years, across Tesla’s model lineup. The automaker replaced front upper control arms on about 120,000 cars globally from January 2021 through March 2022, according to a Reuters analysis of repair records included in the Tesla documents. Most of the replacements came on the Model 3, Tesla’s least expensive vehicle. Many of the customer complaints were for noise. And: > Former service managers and technicians in Norway, the country with the most Teslas per capita, said in interviews that they were inundated with angry customers complaining of early control-arm failures. They said that tension increased as the automaker, starting in 2017, told service employees to push the cost of the frequent and repeated failures onto customers to cut warranty and goodwill repair costs. One manager said he was forced out after resisting the company’s push to blame customers for the failures of faulty control arms. “I said: ‘Now, we have to quit talking bullshit,’” he recalled. A service technician said he started in 2018 and quit a year later over the issue. “I wasn’t doing anything else than just constantly changing those control arms,” he said. And on half shaft failures: > One repair analysis showed the company replaced nearly 66,000 half shafts between January 2021 and March 2022. Customers paid for about 10% of those repairs. > More than one engineer made a point of saying the issue had nothing to do with damage caused by customers. Engineer Anastasia Skolariki, who was troubleshooting repair problems and customer complaints for Tesla in Europe, wrote in May 2020 to other engineers and technicians that the problem was a design issue “and not abusive behavior from the customer side.” The company needed to cover repairs for cars under warranty, she said, “no matter how many times the vehicle comes to Service with the same issue.” And here's an exciting half shaft failure: > In 2019, a Tesla engineer in Shanghai flagged a failure on a brand-new Model S with 160 kilometers (99 miles) on it. The car’s rear left half shaft had broken into three pieces when the owner stepped on the accelerator; one of the pieces pierced the electric-drive unit that powers the car. You should have a proper read of the Reuters article: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-musk-steering-suspension/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-mu... You're clearly not taking it in.