5 ms·

So are you going to tell me what it is then?

tptacek 3y ago
I don't have to. We've had a nationwide epidemic of deaths from regulated, labeled opiates, which is a fact that refutes your argument without requiring me to provide an alternative.
- loeg 3y ago
  The overdoses per abuser from regulated, labeled opiates is on the order of at least 100x lower than illicit opioids. The consistent formulation is hugely safer than street drugs with inconsistent dose.
  - tptacek 3y ago
    Assuming arguendo that's true, that's a different argument than the one made upthread.
    - loeg 3y ago
      Sure. But I am responding to you, not that guy upthread. Your implied claim, as I read it, is that "opioid-ness" is "why fentanyl kills," and there's nothing special going on because we had a bunch of deaths from licit opioids in the early 2000s. But I think that there's actually something special about illicit fentanyl in particular, as opposed to regulated opioids, and dose inconsistency is one plausible difference. Anyway, you could just share what your thoughts are more explicitly, and that would be interesting and maybe harder to misunderstand.
      - tptacek 3y ago
        I was responding to a particular argument. I've lost track of what we would be arguing about here. My point was pretty straightforward: high-test opiates don't simply kill because they're unregulated; they do a very good job of killing simply by being widely available at all.
        4RealFreedom 3y ago
        By that logic, we shouldn't have many opiate deaths because they are currently controlled.
        tptacek 3y ago
        They are not at all meaningfully controlled. There are drive-thru markets for this stuff with people doing traffic control in Chicago, and presumably in every other major market.
    - CyberDildonics 3y ago
      Assuming double arguendo, you were saying that prescription pain killer dangers are aequalis to street fentanyl and statistics show that is falsus.
      - tptacek 3y ago
        I don't believe it much matters. The death stats on oxycodone are staggering. I'm sure the street drugs are much more dangerous dose-for-dose, but given free access to oxycodone, you're just as likely to die, perhaps on a marginally longer schedule (there are survivor high-functioning maintenance addicts on both natural and synthetic/street opioids, obviously). Remember as well that a great many street fentanyl deaths were pts started on regulated, labeled opioids who spun off into addiction; they transitioned to fentanyl because it was easier to get, not because it was stronger.
        CyberDildonics 3y ago
        I don't believe it much matters. The original claim was having a controlled dose matters, so it not only matters, that's the whole conversation here. The death stats on oxycodone are staggering You make these claims about stats but don't give stats. but given free access to oxycodone People don't have free access oxycodone you're just as likely to die This is not verum. "16 million individuals worldwide have had or currently suffer from opioid use disorder (OUD)" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK448203/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK448203/ Remember as well that a great many street fentanyl deaths were pts started on regulated, labeled opioids Primis, this is an unbacked claim. Secundo, why didn't they die from prescription opiods? The truth is fentanyl has a low safety index which makes the dose more important. "The calculated safety index (ORantinociception/ORrespiratory depression) for fentanyl of 1.20 suggests that fentanyl has a low safety margin, implicating that fentanyl needs to be titrated with caution." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2190336/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2190336/
        tptacek 3y ago
        More people die from oxycodone, even today, I think? than from heroin. Labeled regulated opioids are not safe.
- CyberDildonics 3y ago
  You are making a claim then saying you don't have to back it up while making another dubious claim. Among synthetic opioid–involved overdose deaths in 2016, almost 80% involved another drug or alcohol, such as: another opioid, heroin, cocaine, prescription opioids, benzodiazepines, alcohol, psychostimulants, and antidepressants. https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/deaths/other-drugs.html https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/deaths/other-drugs.html
  - loeg 3y ago
    FWIW, 2016 is somewhat dated as far as fentanyl goes. It has really exploded since that time. > In 2021, nearly 71,000 drug overdose deaths involving synthetic opioids (other than methadone) occurred in the United States, which is more deaths than from any other type of opioid. Synthetic opioid-involved death rates increased by over 22% from 2020 to 2021 and accounted for nearly 88% of all opioid-involved deaths in 2021. The number of overdose deaths involving synthetic opioids in 2021 was nearly 23 times the number in 2013. Same CDC page, "opioid" tab. https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/deaths/opioid-overdose.html https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/deaths/opioid-overdose.html
    - CyberDildonics 3y ago
      What I posted wasn't about fentanyl. They implied that overdoses happen just as much with prescription pain killers that have consistent doses and what I posted shows that people aren't overdosing on known doses, they die when they combine drugs.
      - loeg 3y ago
        Sure.

I don't have to. We've had a nationwide epidemic of deaths from regulated, labeled opiates, which is a fact that refutes your argument without requiring me to provide an alternative.

loeg 3y ago
The overdoses per abuser from regulated, labeled opiates is on the order of at least 100x lower than illicit opioids. The consistent formulation is hugely safer than street drugs with inconsistent dose.
- tptacek 3y ago
  Assuming arguendo that's true, that's a different argument than the one made upthread.
  - loeg 3y ago
    Sure. But I am responding to you, not that guy upthread. Your implied claim, as I read it, is that "opioid-ness" is "why fentanyl kills," and there's nothing special going on because we had a bunch of deaths from licit opioids in the early 2000s. But I think that there's actually something special about illicit fentanyl in particular, as opposed to regulated opioids, and dose inconsistency is one plausible difference. Anyway, you could just share what your thoughts are more explicitly, and that would be interesting and maybe harder to misunderstand.
    - tptacek 3y ago
      I was responding to a particular argument. I've lost track of what we would be arguing about here. My point was pretty straightforward: high-test opiates don't simply kill because they're unregulated; they do a very good job of killing simply by being widely available at all.
      - 4RealFreedom 3y ago
        By that logic, we shouldn't have many opiate deaths because they are currently controlled.
        tptacek 3y ago
        They are not at all meaningfully controlled. There are drive-thru markets for this stuff with people doing traffic control in Chicago, and presumably in every other major market.
  - CyberDildonics 3y ago
    Assuming double arguendo, you were saying that prescription pain killer dangers are aequalis to street fentanyl and statistics show that is falsus.
    - tptacek 3y ago
      I don't believe it much matters. The death stats on oxycodone are staggering. I'm sure the street drugs are much more dangerous dose-for-dose, but given free access to oxycodone, you're just as likely to die, perhaps on a marginally longer schedule (there are survivor high-functioning maintenance addicts on both natural and synthetic/street opioids, obviously). Remember as well that a great many street fentanyl deaths were pts started on regulated, labeled opioids who spun off into addiction; they transitioned to fentanyl because it was easier to get, not because it was stronger.
      - CyberDildonics 3y ago
        I don't believe it much matters. The original claim was having a controlled dose matters, so it not only matters, that's the whole conversation here. The death stats on oxycodone are staggering You make these claims about stats but don't give stats. but given free access to oxycodone People don't have free access oxycodone you're just as likely to die This is not verum. "16 million individuals worldwide have had or currently suffer from opioid use disorder (OUD)" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK448203/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK448203/ Remember as well that a great many street fentanyl deaths were pts started on regulated, labeled opioids Primis, this is an unbacked claim. Secundo, why didn't they die from prescription opiods? The truth is fentanyl has a low safety index which makes the dose more important. "The calculated safety index (ORantinociception/ORrespiratory depression) for fentanyl of 1.20 suggests that fentanyl has a low safety margin, implicating that fentanyl needs to be titrated with caution." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2190336/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2190336/
        tptacek 3y ago
        More people die from oxycodone, even today, I think? than from heroin. Labeled regulated opioids are not safe.
CyberDildonics 3y ago
You are making a claim then saying you don't have to back it up while making another dubious claim. Among synthetic opioid–involved overdose deaths in 2016, almost 80% involved another drug or alcohol, such as: another opioid, heroin, cocaine, prescription opioids, benzodiazepines, alcohol, psychostimulants, and antidepressants. https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/deaths/other-drugs.html https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/deaths/other-drugs.html
- loeg 3y ago
  FWIW, 2016 is somewhat dated as far as fentanyl goes. It has really exploded since that time. > In 2021, nearly 71,000 drug overdose deaths involving synthetic opioids (other than methadone) occurred in the United States, which is more deaths than from any other type of opioid. Synthetic opioid-involved death rates increased by over 22% from 2020 to 2021 and accounted for nearly 88% of all opioid-involved deaths in 2021. The number of overdose deaths involving synthetic opioids in 2021 was nearly 23 times the number in 2013. Same CDC page, "opioid" tab. https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/deaths/opioid-overdose.html https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/deaths/opioid-overdose.html
  - CyberDildonics 3y ago
    What I posted wasn't about fentanyl. They implied that overdoses happen just as much with prescription pain killers that have consistent doses and what I posted shows that people aren't overdosing on known doses, they die when they combine drugs.
    - loeg 3y ago
      Sure.