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The president can however pardon in states using “emergency powers”. Our constitution does not define the breadth and depth of emergency powers and it would be

The president can however pardon in states using “emergency powers”. Our constitution does not define the breadth and depth of emergency powers and it would be up for both congress and SCOTUS to decide that the president can’t do that. I would hope that a president would just say fuck it and try this though. As much as I want things to be done “the right way”, I value lives of folks more than my neurodivergent desire to have things done neatly.

djur 3y ago
POTUS: I'm pardoning everybody in your state who has a drug conviction. STATE GOV: No, you aren't. POTUS: You have to let all of those people out of prison. STATE GOV: No, we don't. POTUS: It's an emergency! STATE GOV: No, it isn't. What next? Send in the army?
- amanaplanacanal 3y ago
  It would be appealed to the US Supreme Court.
  - djur 3y ago
    I suppose the idea is that the "pardoned" prisoners would sue their states demanding release. If the Supreme Court bothered granting cert it would be to write the shortest, nastiest 9-0 "absolutely not" opinion ever.
- mikestew 3y ago
  What next? Send in the army? Did the Federal Government send in the military to enforce the federal 55 mph speed limit? No, your state would just get cut off from federal funding (funding for which, BTW, came from the state’s citizens to begin with). So, don’t let ‘em out? Have fun funding the housing of the pardoned with your own state’s dollars. Is it worth that much to you, Governor It-is-the-principle-not-the-money?
  - jaredhallen 3y ago
    This is exactly the answer. It's also the reason for perennial disputes about states rights, and the exact reason that the constitution was written the way it was - all rights not specifically enumerated lie with the states. Unfortunately, the interstate commerce clause has become the mother of all loopholes, and the federal government has ballooned to be an order of magnitude (at least) larger than it was ever intended to be. And now it wields all this unintended power and collects copious amounts of tax revenue, which it then turns around and wields against the states to exercise yet more power.
  - djur 3y ago
    The federal speed limit is a law passed by Congress. We're talking about executive action here, and the President is specifically forbidden by law to impound funds without Congressional authorization.
tptacek 3y ago
I don't think it is the case that the President can use "emergency powers" to pardon state crimes; the same argument suggests that the President can use those powers to declare themselves dictator for life.
jkaplowitz 3y ago
Nothing in currently recognized emergency powers allows the president to pardon state crimes, and in fact it’s very clearly settled law that he cannot do so. No state or federal court is likely to respect or uphold such an abuse of power as long as US democracy remains intact … and while US democracy is very much in jeopardy right now, it won’t vanish before the next president takes over - Biden will follow the rules of the democratic system.
qingcharles 3y ago
I think trying something like this would end very badly for the union.
dragonwriter 3y ago
> The president can however pardon in states using “emergency powers”. No, he can't. > Our constitution does not define the breadth and depth of emergency powers In our system, federal powers not defined in the Constitution do not exist.
- aaomidi 3y ago
  Emergency powers are not in the constitution, they’re basically “up in the air” of precedent. It is likely that if an action like this is taken, feathers will be rustled. However if that rustling would impact anything is completely up in the air.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > Emergency powers are not in the constitution, they’re basically “up in the air” of precedent. No, emergency powers that actually exist are components of Constitutionally enumerated powers and, for the President, are mostly spelled out in statute law passed by Congress under its Constitutionally enumerated powers. There is no source of powers for the US government outside of the Constitution.
- zrail 3y ago
  Yep. The 10th amendment, in it's entirety: > The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

djur 3y ago

POTUS: I'm pardoning everybody in your state who has a drug conviction. STATE GOV: No, you aren't. POTUS: You have to let all of those people out of prison. STATE GOV: No, we don't. POTUS: It's an emergency! STATE GOV: No, it isn't. What next? Send in the army?

amanaplanacanal 3y ago
It would be appealed to the US Supreme Court.
- djur 3y ago
  I suppose the idea is that the "pardoned" prisoners would sue their states demanding release. If the Supreme Court bothered granting cert it would be to write the shortest, nastiest 9-0 "absolutely not" opinion ever.
mikestew 3y ago
What next? Send in the army? Did the Federal Government send in the military to enforce the federal 55 mph speed limit? No, your state would just get cut off from federal funding (funding for which, BTW, came from the state’s citizens to begin with). So, don’t let ‘em out? Have fun funding the housing of the pardoned with your own state’s dollars. Is it worth that much to you, Governor It-is-the-principle-not-the-money?
- jaredhallen 3y ago
  This is exactly the answer. It's also the reason for perennial disputes about states rights, and the exact reason that the constitution was written the way it was - all rights not specifically enumerated lie with the states. Unfortunately, the interstate commerce clause has become the mother of all loopholes, and the federal government has ballooned to be an order of magnitude (at least) larger than it was ever intended to be. And now it wields all this unintended power and collects copious amounts of tax revenue, which it then turns around and wields against the states to exercise yet more power.
- djur 3y ago
  The federal speed limit is a law passed by Congress. We're talking about executive action here, and the President is specifically forbidden by law to impound funds without Congressional authorization.

tptacek 3y ago

I don't think it is the case that the President can use "emergency powers" to pardon state crimes; the same argument suggests that the President can use those powers to declare themselves dictator for life.

jkaplowitz 3y ago

Nothing in currently recognized emergency powers allows the president to pardon state crimes, and in fact it’s very clearly settled law that he cannot do so. No state or federal court is likely to respect or uphold such an abuse of power as long as US democracy remains intact … and while US democracy is very much in jeopardy right now, it won’t vanish before the next president takes over - Biden will follow the rules of the democratic system.

qingcharles 3y ago

I think trying something like this would end very badly for the union.

dragonwriter 3y ago

> The president can however pardon in states using “emergency powers”. No, he can't. > Our constitution does not define the breadth and depth of emergency powers In our system, federal powers not defined in the Constitution do not exist.

aaomidi 3y ago
Emergency powers are not in the constitution, they’re basically “up in the air” of precedent. It is likely that if an action like this is taken, feathers will be rustled. However if that rustling would impact anything is completely up in the air.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > Emergency powers are not in the constitution, they’re basically “up in the air” of precedent. No, emergency powers that actually exist are components of Constitutionally enumerated powers and, for the President, are mostly spelled out in statute law passed by Congress under its Constitutionally enumerated powers. There is no source of powers for the US government outside of the Constitution.
zrail 3y ago
Yep. The 10th amendment, in it's entirety: > The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.