7 ms·

This will have virtually zero effect. The president only has the power to pardon people convicted or accused of violating federal law and prosecuted in federal

by codexb 3y ago

This will have virtually zero effect. The president only has the power to pardon people convicted or accused of violating federal law and prosecuted in federal court. The problem is that nearly all people arrested for simple possession of marijuana aren't charged under federal law nor prosecuted in federal court. They are charged under state law that similarly outlaws marijuana possession and prosecuted in state court. The president does not have the power to pardon convictions and punishment in state court.

_8j50 3y ago
> The president only has the power to pardon people convicted or accused of violating federal law and prosecuted in federal court. The president can pardon any offense against the united states except impeachment. State offenses have always been left to governors to pardon but states are what make the united states and as such state offenses while violating only state law, they are an offense against a state that is part of the union and affect a citizen of the union, as such the president has ulitmate power to pardon. This is similar to how state legal dispute or prosecution can ultimately be decided by the supreme court of the united states. It does not stop at the state's supreme court. If trump gets elected next year for example, he can pardon himself of his upcoming likely conviction in georgia. Else you have a situation where in 2028 as soon as he leaves office he becomes a wanted criminal. Presidents know that pardoning a stare criminal is overriding state law and alienating voters from that state and risking rifts in the union. I believe the president supersedes state governors in every power they have except things like appointments and firings at the state level.
- elcritch 3y ago
  According to https://www.justice.gov/pardon/frequently-asked-questions#:~:text=Does%20the%20President%20have%20authority,%3A%20“The%20President%20.%20.%20 https://www.justice.gov/pardon/frequently-asked-questions#:~.... > Does the President have authority to grant clemency for a state conviction? No. The President’s clemency power is conferred by Article II, Section 2, Clause 1 of the Constitution of the United States, which provides: “The President . . . shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.” Thus, the President’s authority to grant clemency is limited to federal offenses
  - _8j50 3y ago
    That's DoJ policy. The legal community in the majority also agree with that, but, here is the text from wikipedia: > The Constitution grants the president the power to pardon "offenses against the United States".[5] An offense that violates state law, but not federal law, is an offense against that state rather than an offense against the United States; however, the Supreme Court has never ruled on this matter or in the President's power to grant a habeas corpus petition for a state offense where it has been denied by a federal court. If you consider english common law and the absolute nature of the pardon power, including presumptive crimes then this is an untested grey area. If the power was limited, the limit would have been stated. The current consensus is that the limit is implied, but an argument can be made that since english kings had pardon power over their whole domain, the same is implied when stating "offenses against the united states". Federal authority supersedes state authority in every other case, if this was different it should have been stated so as it is a deviance. But ultimately this would come down to a supreme court opinion.
refurb 3y ago
This will have virtually zero effect. Oh it will have a huge effect politically. Biden can talk about how he is compassionate and fighting the injustice of federal marijuana crimes. It's perfectly politically. Zero cost, and lots of benefit.
enraged_camel 3y ago
Also applies to people arrested in DC.
aaomidi 3y ago
The president can however pardon in states using “emergency powers”. Our constitution does not define the breadth and depth of emergency powers and it would be up for both congress and SCOTUS to decide that the president can’t do that. I would hope that a president would just say fuck it and try this though. As much as I want things to be done “the right way”, I value lives of folks more than my neurodivergent desire to have things done neatly.
- djur 3y ago
  POTUS: I'm pardoning everybody in your state who has a drug conviction. STATE GOV: No, you aren't. POTUS: You have to let all of those people out of prison. STATE GOV: No, we don't. POTUS: It's an emergency! STATE GOV: No, it isn't. What next? Send in the army?
  - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
    It would be appealed to the US Supreme Court.
    - djur 3y ago
      I suppose the idea is that the "pardoned" prisoners would sue their states demanding release. If the Supreme Court bothered granting cert it would be to write the shortest, nastiest 9-0 "absolutely not" opinion ever.
  - mikestew 3y ago
    What next? Send in the army? Did the Federal Government send in the military to enforce the federal 55 mph speed limit? No, your state would just get cut off from federal funding (funding for which, BTW, came from the state’s citizens to begin with). So, don’t let ‘em out? Have fun funding the housing of the pardoned with your own state’s dollars. Is it worth that much to you, Governor It-is-the-principle-not-the-money?
    - jaredhallen 3y ago
cobbal 3y ago
The page mentions DC specifically, which is under federal jurisdiction. The headline may indeed be overselling the implications.
- williamcotton 3y ago
  It mentions the pardons in DC from 2022. This pardon is for the entire United States, at least at the federal level. I don’t think kids sitting in a county jail for brining a joint to school in west Texas are going anywhere, though!
- btilly 3y ago
  The page mentions 4 categories of law which are pardoned. The first is https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2011-title21/html/USCODE-2011-title21-chap13-subchapI-partD-sec844.htm https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2011-title21/html..., which covers the whole country. The next two are DC specific. And the last is specific to possession on federal properties. So no, the headline is not overselling the implications. If you simply possessed marijuana and were convicted under federal law, your case is going to be pardoned.
Digory 3y ago
As the proclamation says, the District of Columbia's local laws are technically federal laws. So it wipes out the convictions of a good number of people in one of our major cities. I can't quite tell if this applies to military convictions. That would be the other area where the Federal government takes the time to prosecute something as minor as mere possession or use. Another interesting question: does this actually pardon, or is it more like an open call for applications? It looks to me like you'd want to get that pardon certificate from the WH Pardon lawyer well before the next election.
- qingcharles 3y ago
  As a fake lawyer, I would also love to know if this applies to military convictions. What other places outside of DC does federal law apply to? (without the need for it to be interstate or some other such clause that is normally required for federal statutes to apply) Can the president pardon crimes on reservations?
  - torstenvl 3y ago
    It does not apply to military convictions. Very frustrating.
  - est31 3y ago
    > What other places outside of DC does federal law apply to? In theory, anything owned by the federal government is under federal law. This means federal court houses, branches of the fed, federal waters (anything above 3 geographical miles from shore), national parks, etc. Sometimes law enforcement is delegated to state local authorities though.
  - hx8 3y ago
    I am also a fake lawyer. Even in legal states, you can get a simple possession charge on federal land [0]. [0] https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/olympic/news-events/?cid=STELPRDB5411797 https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/olympic/news-events/?cid=STEL...
    - 3y ago
tcmart14 3y ago
My guess would be that by the president pardoning these crimes, it would potentially make it more acceptable for governors to do the same for state level crimes. However, it still doesn't solve the overarching issue of draconian drug laws.
- elcritch 3y ago
  Especially ironic since Biden was one of the original architects of those draconian laws.
  - tcmart14 3y ago
    Ia that really ironic though? If anything, it should be something we value. Granted, this was much later than would have been liked, like decades later. But a politician going, "oh, wait, that policy I helped passed turned out to have bad side effects. I see it now, recognize it and will do something about it." We have too many politicians who pass bad policy, and better yet pass it, watch it blow up in their faces and move on with their life to never revisit again. Chances are, most to all politicians are at some point going to pass bad policy, the important part is, recognizing when things go off the rails and correcting course.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
cm2187 3y ago
And when they are charged under federal law, it is often a negotiated downgrade from distribution, i.e. people rarely get sentenced for mere possession.
Workaccount2 3y ago
Believe it or not, I actually know someone who was federally charged for possession of marijuana in the last few years. He worked as a mover and moved someone onto a military base (in a decriminalized state). He forgot he had his weed in his jacket pocket when they got searched entering the base. Didn't get jail, but did get probation and a record of it.

by codexb 3y ago

_8j50 3y ago

> The president only has the power to pardon people convicted or accused of violating federal law and prosecuted in federal court. The president can pardon any offense against the united states except impeachment. State offenses have always been left to governors to pardon but states are what make the united states and as such state offenses while violating only state law, they are an offense against a state that is part of the union and affect a citizen of the union, as such the president has ulitmate power to pardon. This is similar to how state legal dispute or prosecution can ultimately be decided by the supreme court of the united states. It does not stop at the state's supreme court. If trump gets elected next year for example, he can pardon himself of his upcoming likely conviction in georgia. Else you have a situation where in 2028 as soon as he leaves office he becomes a wanted criminal. Presidents know that pardoning a stare criminal is overriding state law and alienating voters from that state and risking rifts in the union. I believe the president supersedes state governors in every power they have except things like appointments and firings at the state level.

elcritch 3y ago
According to https://www.justice.gov/pardon/frequently-asked-questions#:~:text=Does%20the%20President%20have%20authority,%3A%20“The%20President%20.%20.%20 https://www.justice.gov/pardon/frequently-asked-questions#:~.... > Does the President have authority to grant clemency for a state conviction? No. The President’s clemency power is conferred by Article II, Section 2, Clause 1 of the Constitution of the United States, which provides: “The President . . . shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.” Thus, the President’s authority to grant clemency is limited to federal offenses
- _8j50 3y ago
  That's DoJ policy. The legal community in the majority also agree with that, but, here is the text from wikipedia: > The Constitution grants the president the power to pardon "offenses against the United States".[5] An offense that violates state law, but not federal law, is an offense against that state rather than an offense against the United States; however, the Supreme Court has never ruled on this matter or in the President's power to grant a habeas corpus petition for a state offense where it has been denied by a federal court. If you consider english common law and the absolute nature of the pardon power, including presumptive crimes then this is an untested grey area. If the power was limited, the limit would have been stated. The current consensus is that the limit is implied, but an argument can be made that since english kings had pardon power over their whole domain, the same is implied when stating "offenses against the united states". Federal authority supersedes state authority in every other case, if this was different it should have been stated so as it is a deviance. But ultimately this would come down to a supreme court opinion.

refurb 3y ago

This will have virtually zero effect. Oh it will have a huge effect politically. Biden can talk about how he is compassionate and fighting the injustice of federal marijuana crimes. It's perfectly politically. Zero cost, and lots of benefit.

enraged_camel 3y ago

Also applies to people arrested in DC.

aaomidi 3y ago

The president can however pardon in states using “emergency powers”. Our constitution does not define the breadth and depth of emergency powers and it would be up for both congress and SCOTUS to decide that the president can’t do that. I would hope that a president would just say fuck it and try this though. As much as I want things to be done “the right way”, I value lives of folks more than my neurodivergent desire to have things done neatly.

djur 3y ago
POTUS: I'm pardoning everybody in your state who has a drug conviction. STATE GOV: No, you aren't. POTUS: You have to let all of those people out of prison. STATE GOV: No, we don't. POTUS: It's an emergency! STATE GOV: No, it isn't. What next? Send in the army?
- amanaplanacanal 3y ago
  It would be appealed to the US Supreme Court.
  - djur 3y ago
    I suppose the idea is that the "pardoned" prisoners would sue their states demanding release. If the Supreme Court bothered granting cert it would be to write the shortest, nastiest 9-0 "absolutely not" opinion ever.
- mikestew 3y ago
  What next? Send in the army? Did the Federal Government send in the military to enforce the federal 55 mph speed limit? No, your state would just get cut off from federal funding (funding for which, BTW, came from the state’s citizens to begin with). So, don’t let ‘em out? Have fun funding the housing of the pardoned with your own state’s dollars. Is it worth that much to you, Governor It-is-the-principle-not-the-money?
  - jaredhallen 3y ago

cobbal 3y ago

The page mentions DC specifically, which is under federal jurisdiction. The headline may indeed be overselling the implications.

williamcotton 3y ago
It mentions the pardons in DC from 2022. This pardon is for the entire United States, at least at the federal level. I don’t think kids sitting in a county jail for brining a joint to school in west Texas are going anywhere, though!
btilly 3y ago
The page mentions 4 categories of law which are pardoned. The first is https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2011-title21/html/USCODE-2011-title21-chap13-subchapI-partD-sec844.htm https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2011-title21/html..., which covers the whole country. The next two are DC specific. And the last is specific to possession on federal properties. So no, the headline is not overselling the implications. If you simply possessed marijuana and were convicted under federal law, your case is going to be pardoned.

Digory 3y ago

As the proclamation says, the District of Columbia's local laws are technically federal laws. So it wipes out the convictions of a good number of people in one of our major cities. I can't quite tell if this applies to military convictions. That would be the other area where the Federal government takes the time to prosecute something as minor as mere possession or use. Another interesting question: does this actually pardon, or is it more like an open call for applications? It looks to me like you'd want to get that pardon certificate from the WH Pardon lawyer well before the next election.

qingcharles 3y ago
As a fake lawyer, I would also love to know if this applies to military convictions. What other places outside of DC does federal law apply to? (without the need for it to be interstate or some other such clause that is normally required for federal statutes to apply) Can the president pardon crimes on reservations?
- torstenvl 3y ago
  It does not apply to military convictions. Very frustrating.
- est31 3y ago
  > What other places outside of DC does federal law apply to? In theory, anything owned by the federal government is under federal law. This means federal court houses, branches of the fed, federal waters (anything above 3 geographical miles from shore), national parks, etc. Sometimes law enforcement is delegated to state local authorities though.
- hx8 3y ago
  I am also a fake lawyer. Even in legal states, you can get a simple possession charge on federal land [0]. [0] https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/olympic/news-events/?cid=STELPRDB5411797 https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/olympic/news-events/?cid=STEL...
  - 3y ago

tcmart14 3y ago

My guess would be that by the president pardoning these crimes, it would potentially make it more acceptable for governors to do the same for state level crimes. However, it still doesn't solve the overarching issue of draconian drug laws.

elcritch 3y ago
Especially ironic since Biden was one of the original architects of those draconian laws.
- tcmart14 3y ago
  Ia that really ironic though? If anything, it should be something we value. Granted, this was much later than would have been liked, like decades later. But a politician going, "oh, wait, that policy I helped passed turned out to have bad side effects. I see it now, recognize it and will do something about it." We have too many politicians who pass bad policy, and better yet pass it, watch it blow up in their faces and move on with their life to never revisit again. Chances are, most to all politicians are at some point going to pass bad policy, the important part is, recognizing when things go off the rails and correcting course.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

cm2187 3y ago

And when they are charged under federal law, it is often a negotiated downgrade from distribution, i.e. people rarely get sentenced for mere possession.

Workaccount2 3y ago

Believe it or not, I actually know someone who was federally charged for possession of marijuana in the last few years. He worked as a mover and moved someone onto a military base (in a decriminalized state). He forgot he had his weed in his jacket pocket when they got searched entering the base. Didn't get jail, but did get probation and a record of it.