3 ms·

Unless it's 100% effective, how could it not induce antibiotic resistance? And anything that's 100% effective is likely going to do damage to something else, no

by xxpor 3y ago

Unless it's 100% effective, how could it not induce antibiotic resistance? And anything that's 100% effective is likely going to do damage to something else, no?

epgui 3y ago
You ask the right questions, and what you’re suggesting is correct.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
echelon 3y ago
I'd like to see them evolve isopropyl alcohol resistance. Or bleach resistance. Things that the prokaryotic biology is outright incompatible with. Obviously not the best for human application, but it'll work in the lab.
- jtriangle 3y ago
  Fire cleanses all.
  - bigbillheck 3y ago
    For now. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinococcus_radiodurans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinococcus_radiodurans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermophile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermophile)
- p1mrx 3y ago
  Bleach-resistant C. diff was in the news recently: https://www.microbiologyresearch.org/content/journal/micro/10.1099/mic.0.001418 https://www.microbiologyresearch.org/content/journal/micro/1...
- jMyles 3y ago
  Both of these have now been observed. Of course your underlying observation holds: prokaryotes nuclei are fundamentally fragile in the face of these compounds. However, my understanding is that in both cases, it appears that microscopic pathogens are capable of rapidly evolving rudimentary mechanical barriers. Alcohol resistance: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322646 https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322646 Bleach resistance: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7464077/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7464077/
  - echelon 3y ago
    > it appears that microscopic pathogens are capable of rapidly evolving rudimentary mechanical barriers. Probably/hopefully at great cost to the organism that would ordinarily allow it to be out-competed. This does pose a problem, however. Especially in environments where frequent sterilization takes place.
burlesona 3y ago
From the article: “The new polymers we synthesized could help fight antibiotic resistance in the future by providing antibacterial molecules that operate through a mechanism against which bacteria do not seem to develop resistance.” The word “seem” is doing a lot of work there. I guess we’ll have to wait and see what the long term / extensive tests show.
DistractionRect 3y ago
It's a mechanical method of action rather that chemical (think targeted receptors/activation sites). An oversimplication would be to liken it to barbed wire. As for you next question, they call out the need to investigate making it selective for bacteria vs human cells. So it seems it has no selectivity at present and will kill other things. And, as I understand it, changing it from being 100% effective to being selective will introduce evolutionary pressure for resistence bateria strains. So this might be neat for materials and creating a sterile environment rather than chasing in vivo applications. Edit: autocorrect wronged a word
- bitwize 3y ago
  > An oversimplication would be to liken it to barbed wire. A more apt explanation would be to liken it to diatomaceous earth vs. pesticides. Insects can develop resistance to poisons, but when they cross diatomaceous earth it pierces their waxy exoskeleton coating and causes them to lose moisture, dry out, and eventually die... and evolution hasn't found a way around that yet.
- bigmattystyles 3y ago
  So at this point it might as well be bleach then?
  - DistractionRect 3y ago
    Bleaching something is an active measure. How well you clean depends on how long you let the bleach work, how thorough you are at getting full/consistent coverage, how frequently you sterilize the surface, etc. This can be a passive way to achieve sterilization, much like silver nano particles and brass surfaces have been shown to passively kill bacteria, except without metal working/precious metals/oxide layers that make those solutions less scalable.
efitz 3y ago
Antibiotics produce chemical effects in the bacteria; eg disrupting metabolic processes. We like antibiotics because they target bacteria without injuring the host. Antibiotics are subject to antibiotic resistance because some bacteria are resistant to the chemical mechanism used. There are antibacterial substances that don’t target metabolic processes. They function in various ways- soap binds to the bacteria and to water and allows them to be washed away. Lysol uses a heavily basic solution to chemically damage the bacteria. These are not 100% effective because nobody uses them long enough or in enough concentration to be 100% effective, because they also affect the host. I guess it’s conceivable that a bacterium could evolve a non-lipid cell membrane or resistance to high pH, but these would be much more massive mutations than slight changes in metabolism.

by xxpor 3y ago

Unless it's 100% effective, how could it not induce antibiotic resistance? And anything that's 100% effective is likely going to do damage to something else, no?

epgui 3y ago

You ask the right questions, and what you’re suggesting is correct.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

echelon 3y ago

I'd like to see them evolve isopropyl alcohol resistance. Or bleach resistance. Things that the prokaryotic biology is outright incompatible with. Obviously not the best for human application, but it'll work in the lab.

jtriangle 3y ago
Fire cleanses all.
- bigbillheck 3y ago
  For now. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinococcus_radiodurans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinococcus_radiodurans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermophile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermophile)
p1mrx 3y ago
Bleach-resistant C. diff was in the news recently: https://www.microbiologyresearch.org/content/journal/micro/10.1099/mic.0.001418 https://www.microbiologyresearch.org/content/journal/micro/1...
jMyles 3y ago
Both of these have now been observed. Of course your underlying observation holds: prokaryotes nuclei are fundamentally fragile in the face of these compounds. However, my understanding is that in both cases, it appears that microscopic pathogens are capable of rapidly evolving rudimentary mechanical barriers. Alcohol resistance: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322646 https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322646 Bleach resistance: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7464077/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7464077/
- echelon 3y ago
  > it appears that microscopic pathogens are capable of rapidly evolving rudimentary mechanical barriers. Probably/hopefully at great cost to the organism that would ordinarily allow it to be out-competed. This does pose a problem, however. Especially in environments where frequent sterilization takes place.

burlesona 3y ago

From the article: “The new polymers we synthesized could help fight antibiotic resistance in the future by providing antibacterial molecules that operate through a mechanism against which bacteria do not seem to develop resistance.” The word “seem” is doing a lot of work there. I guess we’ll have to wait and see what the long term / extensive tests show.

DistractionRect 3y ago

It's a mechanical method of action rather that chemical (think targeted receptors/activation sites). An oversimplication would be to liken it to barbed wire. As for you next question, they call out the need to investigate making it selective for bacteria vs human cells. So it seems it has no selectivity at present and will kill other things. And, as I understand it, changing it from being 100% effective to being selective will introduce evolutionary pressure for resistence bateria strains. So this might be neat for materials and creating a sterile environment rather than chasing in vivo applications. Edit: autocorrect wronged a word

bitwize 3y ago
> An oversimplication would be to liken it to barbed wire. A more apt explanation would be to liken it to diatomaceous earth vs. pesticides. Insects can develop resistance to poisons, but when they cross diatomaceous earth it pierces their waxy exoskeleton coating and causes them to lose moisture, dry out, and eventually die... and evolution hasn't found a way around that yet.
bigmattystyles 3y ago
So at this point it might as well be bleach then?
- DistractionRect 3y ago
  Bleaching something is an active measure. How well you clean depends on how long you let the bleach work, how thorough you are at getting full/consistent coverage, how frequently you sterilize the surface, etc. This can be a passive way to achieve sterilization, much like silver nano particles and brass surfaces have been shown to passively kill bacteria, except without metal working/precious metals/oxide layers that make those solutions less scalable.

efitz 3y ago

Antibiotics produce chemical effects in the bacteria; eg disrupting metabolic processes. We like antibiotics because they target bacteria without injuring the host. Antibiotics are subject to antibiotic resistance because some bacteria are resistant to the chemical mechanism used. There are antibacterial substances that don’t target metabolic processes. They function in various ways- soap binds to the bacteria and to water and allows them to be washed away. Lysol uses a heavily basic solution to chemically damage the bacteria. These are not 100% effective because nobody uses them long enough or in enough concentration to be 100% effective, because they also affect the host. I guess it’s conceivable that a bacterium could evolve a non-lipid cell membrane or resistance to high pH, but these would be much more massive mutations than slight changes in metabolism.