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You're describing life. This is diplomacy, while we can argue about its effectiveness I'm certain we can agree that it's still better than China, Russia and or

by yard2010 3y ago

You're describing life. This is diplomacy, while we can argue about its effectiveness I'm certain we can agree that it's still better than China, Russia and or Iran. It's just a matter of perspective - the west is the lesser evil here

r00fus 3y ago
There's diplomacy and gunboat diplomacy. US seems to always prefer the latter.
chmod775 3y ago
>I'm certain we can agree that it's still better than China, Russia and or Iran. I'm not certain that the people living there agree. From their perspective they bled, got betrayed, and had their entire region royally fucked over for decades. To them we are no different from an authoritarian regime. They don't get to vote in our elections. Maybe if the west simply kept their promises a lot of this could have been avoided. "Diplomacy" is pretty hard now, given that our word isn't worth the paper it's written on.
Geisterde 3y ago
Im describing a pattern of US involvenent in the middle east that has killed millions of people, actually. Russia never getting a friendly welcome from the rest of europe after the collapse of the soviet union has to try to work with the only other neighbors they have, and havent had nearly as many problems and incurring far less wrath from the arab world as we have. Chinas MO is not to start wars, and to date has not started one, they try to capture countries with debt financing. Depending on whether these debts become exogenous and tools to control the political leadership, as is the case with the US, China too may face these problems, but does not currently. We created what iran is today, and we feed it with every sanction, intentionally.
- taeric 3y ago
  Unfortunately for the "US is bad" narrative, conflict in the Middle East far predates US involvement. Genocides, ethnic cleansing, forced conversions, and plenty of other atrocities have been happening globally for a long time. These did not come into being with the modern world. This is not to say that there are not valid criticisms of US actions. But the Arab world deserves more criticism than it typically gets.
  - r00fus 3y ago
    Before the US it was the other colonialists (mainly the Dutch and British). And before that it was the Crusades, the story goes way back. The US, EU, etc don't have a "moral" leg to stand on when it's always a colonialist attitude they have over this region.
    - taeric 3y ago
      If you are going back, I'd be shocked if anyone has a moral leg to stand on. The West isn't better because we came from different roots. We didn't. We have improved, though. One of the ways we improved was an honest assessment of our faults. Not perfectly honest, but we have been improving. Much of the rest of the world powers blatantly lie on their morality. Shamefully so.
  - Geisterde 3y ago
    Criticise away, when we arent actively occupying multiple countries and funding terrorist groups. I agree with you, western culture is better, but you arent putting it on good display when we invade countries to control their oil.
    - taeric 3y ago
      I'm not at all clear what you mean, here? You can look up the active occupations around the world right now. That is also something that was not invented by the US. Nor is it monopolized by western nations. I'm open to the "glass houses" take where people should be careful leveling criticism. I have a hard time seeing how this puts any of the terrorist organizations in a position that they are putting on a good display.
csomar 3y ago
So I guess the Houthis are part of life, no?
- yard2010 3y ago
  Yes and not so long ago Britain was built upon pirating :) Just remember that gunpowder is part of life too

r00fus 3y ago

There's diplomacy and gunboat diplomacy. US seems to always prefer the latter.

chmod775 3y ago

>I'm certain we can agree that it's still better than China, Russia and or Iran. I'm not certain that the people living there agree. From their perspective they bled, got betrayed, and had their entire region royally fucked over for decades. To them we are no different from an authoritarian regime. They don't get to vote in our elections. Maybe if the west simply kept their promises a lot of this could have been avoided. "Diplomacy" is pretty hard now, given that our word isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Geisterde 3y ago

Im describing a pattern of US involvenent in the middle east that has killed millions of people, actually. Russia never getting a friendly welcome from the rest of europe after the collapse of the soviet union has to try to work with the only other neighbors they have, and havent had nearly as many problems and incurring far less wrath from the arab world as we have. Chinas MO is not to start wars, and to date has not started one, they try to capture countries with debt financing. Depending on whether these debts become exogenous and tools to control the political leadership, as is the case with the US, China too may face these problems, but does not currently. We created what iran is today, and we feed it with every sanction, intentionally.

taeric 3y ago
Unfortunately for the "US is bad" narrative, conflict in the Middle East far predates US involvement. Genocides, ethnic cleansing, forced conversions, and plenty of other atrocities have been happening globally for a long time. These did not come into being with the modern world. This is not to say that there are not valid criticisms of US actions. But the Arab world deserves more criticism than it typically gets.
- r00fus 3y ago
  Before the US it was the other colonialists (mainly the Dutch and British). And before that it was the Crusades, the story goes way back. The US, EU, etc don't have a "moral" leg to stand on when it's always a colonialist attitude they have over this region.
  - taeric 3y ago
    If you are going back, I'd be shocked if anyone has a moral leg to stand on. The West isn't better because we came from different roots. We didn't. We have improved, though. One of the ways we improved was an honest assessment of our faults. Not perfectly honest, but we have been improving. Much of the rest of the world powers blatantly lie on their morality. Shamefully so.
- Geisterde 3y ago
  Criticise away, when we arent actively occupying multiple countries and funding terrorist groups. I agree with you, western culture is better, but you arent putting it on good display when we invade countries to control their oil.
  - taeric 3y ago
    I'm not at all clear what you mean, here? You can look up the active occupations around the world right now. That is also something that was not invented by the US. Nor is it monopolized by western nations. I'm open to the "glass houses" take where people should be careful leveling criticism. I have a hard time seeing how this puts any of the terrorist organizations in a position that they are putting on a good display.

csomar 3y ago

So I guess the Houthis are part of life, no?

yard2010 3y ago
Yes and not so long ago Britain was built upon pirating :) Just remember that gunpowder is part of life too