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Right, we havent spent the last 30 years trying to summon khorn over there, they are clearly irrational evil people that we just need to kill.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> they are clearly irrational evil people that we just need to kill We don’t need to kill them. But it’s naive to think appeasement will work with folks calling for the destruction of an entire people. I suppose if I’m going to complain about us having to learn this lesson time and again, I should learn that well-meaning but tragically-naïve people will keep trying it, time and again. (Appeasement isn’t always irrational [1]. But only if done for force conservation, not out of misguided humanitarianism.) [1] https://www.jstor.org/stable/3877861 https://www.jstor.org/stable/3877861
- Geisterde 3y ago
  People argue about what motivated the 9/11 highjackers. Some will say, bin laden hated America, forget what he says about dual containment, he actually just hates us and is using that as a justification. Others will say, look, hes pointing out exactly what hes mad about, he says it right there. The former calls the latter naïve, the latter calls the former bellicose, they could well be both wrong. Maybe bin laden did just hate us, and maybe that doesnt matter, because his little empire was built on a different message that he could convince people it was worth dying for. In Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism, Robert Pape shows that all suicide bombings from 1980 to 2005 were the result of a people being occupied. I am not convinced that anyone actually wants conflict, not once theyve seen it and are subject to it at least, unless there is a direct incentive. You might think these people wont stop until they are dead or accomplish their most hardline public talking points, but I find it far more likely that theyd rather be home with their kids than out in the field guarding an unguardable missile launcher.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > all suicide bombings from 1980 to 2005 were the result of a people being occupied These aren’t suicide bombings. They’re helicopter-assisted seizures and anti-ship missile attacks. > I find it far more likely that theyd rather be home with their kids than out in the field guarding an unguardable missile launcher So would have many Nazis. For what it’s worth, I don’t think the Houthis are evil. Their domestic war is entirely justified. Escalating to a regional conflict probably wasn’t their idea; the instructions came from Tehran. We don’t fight to kill evil people, we fight to achieve objectives. Within the narrow scope of reopening the Bab-el-Mandab, negotiating isn’t an option because there is no single group who control all the Houthis’ armed forces except Tehran, and Tehran isn’t offering terms.
    - Geisterde 3y ago
      I was using suicide bombings to demonstrate that people dont willingly throw their lives away unless they have a good reason for it. Look, just, for a second consider that you are treating iran as a bogeyman, they gave us intelligence on al queda after 9/11, they held a candlelight vigil in tehran for the victims. How much do you really know about iran? Are you really so confident that you understand everything thats happened there? How well, are you confident enough to get people killed over it?
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > consider that you are treating iran as a bogeyman I’m not. I’m treating them as a decision maker who won’t negotiate. Which they are. That leaves few options for a quick resolution outside military ones. > Are you really so confident that you understand everything thats happened there? Compared to the guy defending the Nazis, yes.
        Geisterde 3y ago
        I cant take you seriously if you want to reduce my belief to defending nazis, I hope you find success in life trying to beat everyone over the head when they dont agree with you, all the best.
  - taeric 3y ago
    Reducing suicidal terrorists to natural responses to occupation feels... somewhat ridiculous. Especially so when you consider how many occupations are currently happening in the world right now without all of them having large numbers of suicidal bombings. More, this completely ignores all other suicidal activities. Cults that lead people to suicide. Bullied people that are driven to suicide. Etc. Seems far more explanatory power can be found if you use indoctrination as the primary driver in such activities. If you manage to indoctrinate people that their life would be best spent by sacrificing it for others, and a valid sacrifice is to strap a bomb to their body, then you will see a rise in that activity.
j4yav 3y ago
Their flag would be rejected in a superhero movie for being too cartoonishly evil: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slogan_of_the_Houthi_movement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slogan_of_the_Houthi_movemen...
golergka 3y ago
You're saying that with sarcasm, but that's the actual truth.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> they are clearly irrational evil people that we just need to kill We don’t need to kill them. But it’s naive to think appeasement will work with folks calling for the destruction of an entire people. I suppose if I’m going to complain about us having to learn this lesson time and again, I should learn that well-meaning but tragically-naïve people will keep trying it, time and again. (Appeasement isn’t always irrational [1]. But only if done for force conservation, not out of misguided humanitarianism.) [1] https://www.jstor.org/stable/3877861 https://www.jstor.org/stable/3877861

Geisterde 3y ago
People argue about what motivated the 9/11 highjackers. Some will say, bin laden hated America, forget what he says about dual containment, he actually just hates us and is using that as a justification. Others will say, look, hes pointing out exactly what hes mad about, he says it right there. The former calls the latter naïve, the latter calls the former bellicose, they could well be both wrong. Maybe bin laden did just hate us, and maybe that doesnt matter, because his little empire was built on a different message that he could convince people it was worth dying for. In Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism, Robert Pape shows that all suicide bombings from 1980 to 2005 were the result of a people being occupied. I am not convinced that anyone actually wants conflict, not once theyve seen it and are subject to it at least, unless there is a direct incentive. You might think these people wont stop until they are dead or accomplish their most hardline public talking points, but I find it far more likely that theyd rather be home with their kids than out in the field guarding an unguardable missile launcher.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > all suicide bombings from 1980 to 2005 were the result of a people being occupied These aren’t suicide bombings. They’re helicopter-assisted seizures and anti-ship missile attacks. > I find it far more likely that theyd rather be home with their kids than out in the field guarding an unguardable missile launcher So would have many Nazis. For what it’s worth, I don’t think the Houthis are evil. Their domestic war is entirely justified. Escalating to a regional conflict probably wasn’t their idea; the instructions came from Tehran. We don’t fight to kill evil people, we fight to achieve objectives. Within the narrow scope of reopening the Bab-el-Mandab, negotiating isn’t an option because there is no single group who control all the Houthis’ armed forces except Tehran, and Tehran isn’t offering terms.
  - Geisterde 3y ago
    I was using suicide bombings to demonstrate that people dont willingly throw their lives away unless they have a good reason for it. Look, just, for a second consider that you are treating iran as a bogeyman, they gave us intelligence on al queda after 9/11, they held a candlelight vigil in tehran for the victims. How much do you really know about iran? Are you really so confident that you understand everything thats happened there? How well, are you confident enough to get people killed over it?
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > consider that you are treating iran as a bogeyman I’m not. I’m treating them as a decision maker who won’t negotiate. Which they are. That leaves few options for a quick resolution outside military ones. > Are you really so confident that you understand everything thats happened there? Compared to the guy defending the Nazis, yes.
      - Geisterde 3y ago
        I cant take you seriously if you want to reduce my belief to defending nazis, I hope you find success in life trying to beat everyone over the head when they dont agree with you, all the best.
- taeric 3y ago
  Reducing suicidal terrorists to natural responses to occupation feels... somewhat ridiculous. Especially so when you consider how many occupations are currently happening in the world right now without all of them having large numbers of suicidal bombings. More, this completely ignores all other suicidal activities. Cults that lead people to suicide. Bullied people that are driven to suicide. Etc. Seems far more explanatory power can be found if you use indoctrination as the primary driver in such activities. If you manage to indoctrinate people that their life would be best spent by sacrificing it for others, and a valid sacrifice is to strap a bomb to their body, then you will see a rise in that activity.

j4yav 3y ago

Their flag would be rejected in a superhero movie for being too cartoonishly evil: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slogan_of_the_Houthi_movement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slogan_of_the_Houthi_movemen...

golergka 3y ago

You're saying that with sarcasm, but that's the actual truth.